Women in Combat? Why? (Part II)

Our main mission when we were there was a hopped up PSD on steroids. I say that cause we were bad mother f*ckers (aren't we all?) When we got hit, we would f*ck their world up. Our SOP was a little different than most PSDs that I knew of.

It was intereting though. On routine missions, we would put out in the opord that we would spend x time at x place and no longer. There were many times we would have to cut it short if we felt something just wasn't kosher. It were times like those they would throw a hissy and try and pull rank on an E4 when we were TC seats. Other times it would be them trying to change things mid mission, like where we set up, or randomly add some afghan compound to go to. Sometimes we would do it, sometimes we wouldnt, METT-TC. The interesting part though, was when we got into contact, they always seemed to "be out of ideas".

When we did do kinetic ops, they didn't come. The only POGs that did come were commo and medics, and they were some squared aways dudes.

 

About a year ago our guard unit (different unit than who I was with when j was deployed) was getting some EIB classes in between zero and qaul, while we waited. It was being done by another unit, but can't remember who. I was in the MK19 class, and let the privates get infront of me and just lingered in the back, as I was intimately familiar with it as it was my love child overseas.

He called on me to answer the question on how to properly clear it. After I was done explaining it, he told me I was wrong. The dumbass was teaching it as a closed bolt weapon....I almost f*cking lost it on that E6, but me trying to work on my temper, I told myself there is a time and place, this isn't it. I did take the privates after and correctly explained the weapon to them and told them to forget everything they leanred from that guy.

I REALLY hope he was a POG.

 

I've had team leaders/squad leaders tell me to forget everything I was just taught by some SNCO several times.

During one of my deployments we had a few Cobras at our BN's base so we had a platoon of airwingers doing 24/7 guard. Our higher ups were nervous about them manning posts so I got tasked out with teaching a 240 class and running everyone through the gun line. The wingers, being wingers, had a lot of NCOs in their platoon and for some reason brought along some SNCOs too. Luckily, my Captain had no tolerance for bull(*)(*)(*)(*) and only wanted everyone to learn. Knowing that as a Corporal some POG Sergeant/SSgt might try and teach it his way, he came to the class and stood right behind me the whole time. Needless to say, I got to teach the class exactly as I wanted to without any interuptions. All I cared about was making sure everyone knew how to shoot. I happily skipped over all the BS and felt that everyone really came out of there knowing how to shoot. Things like that really made me realize how much more efficient the military could be with less regulation and more common sense.

 

Thad the PERFECT example of a great officer and leader. Wish we had more of those, they're few and far between.

Our SGM in theater would make sure we had a pressure cooker, rice and beans in the truck when we went out into the mountains during the winter. He would stay up late, cook it up, and make rounds to us on guard, see how we were doin and hand us soup. He was a great SGM who stood behind his joes. I'd do anything for him.

 

Going a full 360 with the conversation, females can serve with PSD teams therefore why is it such a stretch to have them serve in direct ground combat units beyond brigade support battalions. Assuming they pass the training courses with no undue bias regarding the physical standards.

 

The military is not a democracy, it's hierarchical structure is necessary to maintain good order and discipline. It's not a townhall meeting where everyone gets a say. Besides as I recall in the early phase of OEF at Rhino LZ, during a joint operation, an Air Force Capt. was given senior airfield authority and a few Marines got their panties in a bunch over it. It was General Mattis who stepped in and told his Marines who the (*)(*)(*)(*) here knows more about desert airfield operations. Now I say this with much love and respect to our Marines, I'm not at all trying to start a flame war here...just an anecdote. I've also witnessed a Marine Huey helo crew get disoriented from a dust up at night and crash and burn on the airfield perimeter...no survivors. I have sincere respect for the Marine Corps. I've seen them pay the ultimate price in person.

 

PSDs and Kenetic ops are two entirely different animals.

Most PSDs do not menuever on the enemy, their main goal is to get out of the kill zone. Also, PSDs typically use vics to get from place to place, where as Kenetic ops may use vics or be on foot, mission dependent.

We didn't always get strait out of the kill zone, sometimes we maneuvered but the females stayed in the trucks. As far as our PSD teams, we were made up of LRS guys, so no females. If you don't know what LRS is, think LRRPs or LRSUs from Vietnam, which is where they originated. The only females we had were a LT and an E5, the E5 was our admin person who very rarely left the FOB, and the LT was there for her expertise on the civillian side of things, not for her MOS.

 

PSD is just a generic term for Personal Security Detail. It can be anything from sending a few guys to escort the Company Commander when he goes to a town hall meeting to an entire platoon or company that protects a 4 star General. Within Infantry BNs/regiments PSD teams are basically the BN commander and Regimental Commanders personal platoon. They take him out on the battlefield and escort him whereever he's going. At that level, especially the BN one, most Infantry commanders basically use them as a manuever force. Commander's always like to be at the point of friction so you'll usually find PSDs right where the fightings the heaviest.

That said, when you get to higher levels or have PSDs for diplomats or non-combat forces its an entirely different ball game. An Air Force SF PSD team likely follows around a 4 star general everywhere he goes....getting ferried from base to base. In contrast, a PSD platoon in an Infantry BN is a full fledged manuever element that directly closes with and destroys the enemy. In my BN, the Colonel's PSD was handpicked with mostly experienced, senior guys.

 

Dang, I just got schooled hahahaha. I truly didn't know that about PSDs. Good info.

 

Females serve in AH-64 aviation regiments as pilots and gunners who have the wartime mission of engaging and destroying enemy armored, vehicle and other assets en masse. You both act as though a female could not handle "real" combat going after bad guys. They already do, using weapon systems far more complex and lethal than an M249 SAW.

 

Never said that's not "real" combat. Yes, they operate weapons more complex than a SAW, but can they hump a SAW, 800 rds or more, plus body armor, grenades/smokes, radios, food/water and all the other misc stuff that's really starts to add on weight, not to mention whatever personal items that are needed? Can they hump that for miles/days and in the end when they are dog tired, effectively engage and menuever on the enemy while shoulder firing said SAW?

It's the physical aspects that are at stake here, not the complexity of the weapon.

This as been said over and over and over and over and over.

 

You're reading between the lines again. Within ground combat arms a "manuever" element is a unit or detachment that directly closes with and destroys the enemy by fire and manuever at close range. The type of PSDs you're talking about with Females on them are quite different than the ones were talking about.

No one said anything about women not being able to handle "real" combat. That's you again reading into nothing. What we're doing is discrediting the notion that being a part of PSD team somehow equates to being assigned to a direct ground combat MOS. The whole SAW comment is just childish. The sophistication and "dick" size of weapon doesn't mean anything. It's about how you use it.

 

Wait, I'm childish? I pointed out a fact.
Both of you exhibit a contemptuous attitude towards persons other than grunts, or fobbits and whatever slang you all are so fond of using for anyone who isn't infantry. It is YOU who are diminishing the service of others on a regular basis not me.
"Discrediting" security teamsa is a prime example. I've worked with FAST and placed my personal security, my crew and Air Force assets with full confidence in their abilities. Gender was irrelevant, competency was. Both of you dismiss the competency of females in combat situations and instead rely upon the machismo ethos so prevalent in the combat arms.

 

This is something Herkdriver has said himself, over and over and over and...over and over.

I am not sure where the misunderstanding was. I did not read that they said women cannot handle "real" combat. What is "real' combat anyways but perspective? If you get shot at, that is pretty real.

 

It's like a reset button is pushed, and it starts all over agian.

And so it goes.

Herk, bro, different jobs require different skills and abilities. Grunts are tasked with many different types of jobs besides strait up ground combat. SOME of those jobs may be jobs females can do, but doesn't make them capable of being grunts.

It's the same arguement I've heard from others, the "well I did Infantry stuff when I was in Iraq or Afghanistan" and then think that makes them Infantry.

 

I understand that, however do you think I would tell a crew chief who maintains our aircraft...you ain't (*)(*)(*)(*) I'm a pilot I get the glory while you're stuck back at base all safe and cozy...I'm out risking my life. That's the attitude - hear from both of you. No thanks for the guy stuck behind the wire emptying latrines, nope he ain't (*)(*)(*)(*). PSD teams ain't (*)(*)(*)(*). That's what I'm reading.

 

Where have we said they ain't (*)(*)(*)(*)? Please do enlighten me, cause you're reading into (*)(*)(*)(*).

 

It's not literal if that's you mean. Look at at his way. A young man, hypothetical scenario, tells me he spent a tour of duty in Iraq or Afghanistan and handled the administrative duties of the adjudant general's office behind the wire, I'd look him in the eye and thank him for his service. Would you? Or would you mumble under your breath...fobbit. I realize a lot of it is in good humor and not to taken seriously however when esprit de corps spills over into contempt, genuine contempt for another's service. I take issue with that...personally.

 

Were the same way, I appreciate anyone that serves, peacetime or during war.

Where I think you got the perception we didn't, is during our talks about POGs trying to take command of our job.

What if during a landing in theater, I came into the cockpit, as grunt, and tried tling you how to do your combat landing, because of my rank? You'd say "sir, get out of my cockpit and let me land this bird". Saying that and being p*ssed that I tried doing that, doesn't mean you don't respect my service.

I know that everyone here respects everyone's service and the job they do. But everyone also has to know to stay in their lane.

 

Around and around it goes!

The question of women serving in combat is moot. All of us know they're already there doing the job well.

We all serve and many of us have been under direct fire. It takes courage to kick in the door of a building you know is occupied--but there are plenty of stories of women who are not supposed to be in direct combat serving with honor.

So courage is not the question, either, then, is it?

The question here has evolved more into one of women serving as infantry.

So how about this: So long as a women can meet the same standards as the men, why not let them?

 

This has been answered many many times.

 

Economics

Non-deployability

Sexual Harrassement

 

Non-deployability?
as many as 30% are already non-deployable as it is.

One third of which for medical issues...

http://www.ausa.org/meetings/2011/annual/Pages/Story_Deployable.aspx

Sexual Harrasment?

Gays can now serve openly in direct combat units...

What about them?

 

Women have a non-deployable rate, that off the top of my head, is double men's.

If you want to pretend that having one female in a platoon of 50 grunts won't cause a myraid of issues, we're not gonna get very far.

 

It's more costly to deploy a woman versus a man? How so?

That one I would have to look into; I don't have much information there.

Think there were no such problems with desegregation? Really? The answer then was the same as the answer now: Discipline. And professionalism. And thick skin on the part of the women. But mostly discipline on the part of the troops.

And none of you hit on what I figured would be the most critical issue: upper body strength.