Would we choose vaccine passports?

If vaccine passports are required, I'll make sure I have one (since I'm already one shot in). I want to travel to see family (I lost my mother during this pandemic and my brother had a stroke) and friends. I've felt incredibly isolated and want to remedy that. My concern will be the acceptable form of proof of vaccination - each country will likely have their own.

 

My reference wasn't intended to demonstrate all my points... just that the vaccines yield better immunogenicity than the natural infection. Oh, and it was not just an abstract. From the link, the abstract pops up first, but look at the tabs on top of it. Click on the Full Text tab, if you want to further educate yourself. That is, if you can comprehend the full study.

But do you think my view is not mainstream? You couldn't be more wrong, because the CDC currently recommends vaccination for previously infected persons, and the various health departments in the various states recommend it 7 to 30 days after recovery. Side effects can occur, but what I said is that there isn't evidence of more frequent SERIOUS side effects for vaccinated people who were previously infected. Not that I know. Last I checked. Of course science evolves and it's not excluded that new evidence will pop up.

Oh, and no, I'm not agreeing with the person you were debating against... I actually said, I basically agree with YOU. Except that there is a situation of replication even in vaccinated persons.

You probably are not familiar with my posting (thus, your idea that I lack credibility) but I'm one of the biggest advocates of vaccines, here. And I don't post to enhance credibility... I post to explain the science to our lay posters, and they've appreciated it. You obviously don't. You call it pedantic, and vomiting of words, whatever (while posting an equally verbose response). You do you. I'll continue to clarify the science for those who want to listen.

Ask around... @557 @Bowerbird @LangleyMan @MJ Davies @Pollycy @Quantum Nerd etc etc

 

Do you know if Florida has made an exception for cruise ship companies? I was under the impression that the only way we would be able to board a cruise ship in the future is produce a vaccine passport. If they are not allowed to demand a vaccine passport from their passengers then my guess would be the cruise lines will have to find another port. That would be a huge loss of business for the Florida economy.

 

I am so sorry for the loss of your mom and your brother's stroke. This has been such a hard thing for so many people. I will jump for joy when you can visit with loved ones again.

 

I am very sorry to hear about your loss. I can imagine the extra difficulty when family cannot get together at moments like this.

 

I haven't read every post between you and @CenterField so this may be a repeat at this point. @CenterField is a medical doctor. And, it's just my opinion but this forum is about opinions. I've never once had the impression that he feels superior to anyone here. That's a big statement from me because I generally don't care for doctors because so many have God complexes.

 

Hmmm.

It was not a personal attack.

It is funny how you failed to respond to a credible link that happens to directly disagree with the predicate of your position which is that "it only requires only the most transient presence of the virus and by extension that it does not require virus replication" in order to be called an infection. We have your claim that replication that is not required, versus a credible link provided by me that directly says otherwise.

That is in fact the heart of this debate, and while you have written a veritable book on a topic that does NOT address the heart of this debate, you have failed to even provide cursory evidence for your position. Instead of that long drawn out irrelevancy, it would have been far more impressive if you had simply properly addressed the actual predicate and provide actual evidence of your position in regards to that predicate.

I never claimed that your credibility was somehow "at stake" but I am accusing you of trying to dazzle with Bull**it.

Taking you at your word that you hold two PHD's in subjects surrounding virology, it is sad with all of that self reported knowledge that you have been unable to properly support your position. I dont doubt that you hold immense knowledge in virology, but it is plain as day that you have been unable to use that knowledge to properly support your position.

This debate was never about a long winded description of an immune response. It is about whether or not replication is required in order to say that you have caught the virus. For all of the writing that you did, you failed to substantiate your position even remotely. To make matters worse, your position always was a passive aggressive exercise in irrelevant pedanticism in regards to the conversation in which you chose to insert yourself.

Get it now?

 

Royal Caribbean and Crystal Cruises have already switched their home ports to Nassau, Bahamas. Before Canada and the US, the Bahamas implemented strict guidelines for travel, testing and quarantining. Consequently, cases have remained relatively low with small spikes resulting from people not following guidelines. I think DeSantis needs to consider more than his Trump talking points when determining his stance on the pandemic.

 

Interesting.

I never argued for not getting a vaccine after infection. Not even remotely.

I think this qualifies as one of those strawmen arguments where a person argues against a point that was never raised, and then proceeds to argue against that point that was never raised.

-Once again, I never accused you of lacking credibility...see above about strawmen arguments. I accused you of a verbal vomit in order to establish credibility. In all sincerity, that verbal vomit did NOT address the predicate of what we were discussing. For all of the knowledge contained therein, and i do not doubt that knowledge, you were barking up the wrong tree. You may have a miles worth of scientific knowledge, but that does not mean that you have even an inch worth of ability to properly debate a point. There is an enormous difference.

I do not possess two PHD's in virology, but I am a bright guy that at least in part picks apart and argues medical studies for a living and has done so for a couple decades ( yes I AM capable of understanding the full text of a study). As such, I am skilled at drilling down to the heart of the matter and arguing only those aspects that support my point. I am capable of captivating a room of physicians while holding their attention due to presenting to the point relevant aspects, while I suspect you are probably adept at putting people to sleep with a long winded recitation of disjointed facts. We both bring relative skills to the table, and as impressive as two PHD's in virology may be, they do not mean that you cannot lose an argument. This is a perfect example of such.

Did you REALLY summon other posters so that they will read and perhaps come to your side?....LOL....seriously? Yeesh.

 

FWIW....It is my understanding that he is a PHD doctor, not an MD or D.O.

If you have not read our exchange and subsequently proffered an opinion on that exchange, I am not sure how I am supposed to respond to you.

It looks as if his summoning of friends seems to have worked. I sincerely hope that is not a practice that gets widely adopted in this site, because to me it seems silly. He is surely a big boy capable of fighting his own battles.

 

Jesus. I said from the beginning, technically... if we want to use the strictest definition... pedantic... I was saying, IF we are to say that the mere presence of the virus represents infection, and said that I was basically agreeing with you.

But again, you haven't realized the SECOND situation, where there AREN'T enough neutralizing antibodies. What I was saying was NOT irrelevant, because in the second situation, yes, there is abundant replication.

 

It is my understanding that he is both a medical doctor and has a doctorate degree.

I didn't come to this thread because I was summoned. I am struggling with my decision to get vaccinated so I've been reading here and other threads and other forums.

I'm sorry that you have a different impression of how this went down but all I can do is tell you my side of it.

 

Especially between Washington DC and NYC where there are a lot of flights.

 

Well, it is clear that all that you want is to win an argument... that's the Yeesh. And you are tooting your own horn, too. You captivate a room full of physicians... LOL.

The only reason why you THINK that my explanation was not relevant, is that you don't seem to understand the implications of the second situation, that of low neutralizing antibodies, and the need to appeal to a secondary immune response. The explanation wasn't irrelevant... it's just that you didn't understand it, for all the bright guy you claim to be. The other posters will tell you that yes, I can perfectly explain points. I said, I've been repeatedly praised for doing exactly that. But I can't help, if my interlocutor lacks the ability to understand the points.

And no, no straw man. Kindly go back to post #76 where you said "If I had the virus a month ago, I would probably wait a while" and I said, no, don't wait more than 30 days. Last I checked, a month ago and waiting a while more, is more than 30 days. That's why I'm telling you, the current recommendation is 7 to 30, regardless of what you said about talking to doctors who have different *opinions.* I don't care about opinions. I care about science.

 

What part of MD/PhD you don't understand? Scroll up, and I've mentioned it. Yes, I'm an MD.

And my summoning of other posters doesn't intend for them to agree with me on the viral replication point. It intends, like I said, to demonstrate that they've repeatedly praised me for efficiently explaining the sciences of Virology and Immunology, something you insist I can't do. Whatever.

 

Yes, and I appreciate your comments and your willingness to take the time to correct misimpressions and provide useful information.

 

Who the heck wants to go on a cruise if it might turn into the floating hells we saw last year? I just saw that Norwegian may skip Florida if they can't ask for proof of vaccination.

 

I dont know about you, but I am sincerely tired of continually beating this dead horse. I suspect you may agree with that sentiment.

 

Yes, several cruise lines (and Norwegian owns three of them; there are more) are threatening to skip Florida.
It is interesting to notice that cruise lines are private corporations... often sailing under a foreign banner... and now we have a Republican governor, trying to dictate to private businesses what they have to do, which is definitely not a very conservative view. And then, Republicans complain of big government...

 

I spent 33 years trying to convince high school students and adults to look for answers. Just practicing what I preached.

 

Unless there is a legitimate concern for an allergic reaction due to past anaphylactic type reactions, or perhaps some sort of serious underlying condition that may make getting vaccinated far more dangerous than the norm, I fail to see why a person would not get vaccinated. Medicine is all about minimizing risks, and in my estimation, the risks of not getting vaccinated far outweigh the risks of getting vaccinated (for the overwhelming majority of people).

What is the source of your hesitancy?

 

Yeah, I do. I was thinking, what the hell are the two of us doing? We basically agree on the main points... We seem to both be fairly well informed on this topic... and we are at each other's throats, in a rather immature and non-civil manner. So, from my end, I apologize if I was arrogant and harsh. Peace.

 

Are you a teacher, LangleyMan?

 

While I agree with what you are saying, MJ Davies does have valid reasons for hesitation, which I won't disclose but I'm sure he will, as he's done it before. I've been for the last couple of months or more in a crusade to convince MJ Davies to accept the vaccine... so I'm glad that you're joining the argument. I worry about him and want him to be safe.

 

I wonder how destination ports are planning to deal with outbreaks on cruise ships and what they've said to the cruise lines. In BC, the provincial health officer nixed Alaska cruising for 2021 given that Canada is behind the U.S. in vaccinating their population. Other countries are even further behind.