Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

I did, post #70, and you have yet to respond, so I assume you are unable to refute the scriptures that I quoted.

 

Bull $hit - while , I'm prepared to admit , not having read the bible from cover- to - cover in one sitting , nore to have made a study of it, whatever I've read + still use as a source of reference , is enough for me not to regard it as the word of a god or inspired by a god.

Bender , There are many more entertaining books to read . IMO - Belief in the bible is a matter of choice or indoctrination . , not undeniable facts.


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You cannot just read a verse here or there and understand the Bible......that would lead you to come to the conclusion that you have come to......that is not God's word. The Bible is not a reference source.....it is The word of God to His people.

 

There is no reliable source that the Trinity did not exist except from anti Trinitarians who can not come up with a reasonable argument who is the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and God the Father. Instead they ignore the existence of those three and concentrate on attacking the Catholic church for recognizing it. I can say the same about you, your fanatical and extreme anti Catholic position has blinded you to all facts and reasons.

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So now you understand, the Trinity.....God just like Marlowe is performing different task He is the Holy Spirit to enlighten and educate us, He is Jesus Christ to visually and physically communicate with us and He is God the Father to receive us in His Heavenly Kingdom.
[video=youtube;8tTU00m5MB0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tTU00m5MB0[/video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tTU00m5MB0

Or do you prefer this;;

[video=youtube;bjAM2J_D4UY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjAM2J_D4UY&feature=related[/video]

 

Since the Bible was written by Jews for Jews and claims that they are God's chosen people it really doesn't apply to anyone else except to the Jews. Therefore it's silly to claim that it applies to Gentiles. It makes as much sense as claiming that the ethnocentric desert Arab fairy tale in the Koran applies to Eskimos.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- KERUX:
You are quoting from John 14:9. That verse is not saying that the disciples who saw Jesus Christ literally saw Jehovah. What it's saying is that Jesus perfectly reflects God's qualities and therefore it's as if the disciples saw God. If you read the context—the surrounding words, verses, and chapters—you will realize that. Below is part of the context.

"{8} Philip said to him: 'Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.' {9} Jesus said to him: 'Have I been with you men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has see the Father also. How is it you say, 'Show us the Father?' {10} Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing HIS works.'" (John 14:8-10)


Notice that at verse 10 Jesus says: "I do not speak of my own originality" and "the Father is doing—HIS—works." He didn't say the "The Father is doing OUR works." He said "The Father is doing HIS works." (The KJV renders it: "the Father is doing the works.") That sentence alone shows Jesus could not possibly be Jehovah. Trinitarians purposely disregard what's said in verse 10 because it debunks the pagan trinity. In other words, Trinitarians don't want to see what the Bible really teaches. It's all about following traditions of men as far as they are concerned.


Later on in the very same chapter of John 14, Jesus went on to show again that he is not Jehovah the Father when he said the following.

"You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the father, because the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28 )


According to the trinity dogma, the Father, Son, and holy spirit are supposedly CO-EQUAL. Yet, right there at John 14:28, Jesus came right out and said the Father is greater. Trinitarians try to talk their way around that by saying it only applied to Jesus while he was on earth. When I showed them scriptures that indicate it also applies while Jesus is in heaven, they refuse to accept what those scriptures are saying. These people do not want to submit to God and obey what's written in his inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. They put the false teachings of their church leaders ahead of the inspired Word of God.


CONCLUSION: Jesus Christ is Almighty God's chief spokesman aka "the Word", the most powerful of Jehovah's created angelic sons. In the very last sentence of John 14:10, Jesus said the Father is doing the Father's works through Jesus. He thereby differentiated his works from the works of the Father. Therefore, they could not possibly be the same God within the fabricated "Godhead."


I will address another of your scriptures at a later time.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
You are getting it twisted. No, I'm not contradicting myself at all. And I did not say Thomas addressed Jesus Christ "as a Lord not God." Quote me verbatim where I said that. My last message to you is quoted right above within this post. I suggest you read it slowly this time so you can grasp the point I'm trying to get across to you.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:

"And God went on to say: 'Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.' " (Genesis 1:26)

The "us" and "our" at Genesis 1:26 is Jehovah God speaking to the pre-human Jesus Christ—the very first angel Jehovah created. The Bible says God allowed the pre-human Jesus to assist him in creating all other things, including other angels. Concerning Jesus, the Bible further says the following.

"{15} He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION; {16} because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. {17} Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

QUESTION: Did you notice at verse 15 it refers to Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation"? You do know that the word "born" is with reference to created beings; don't you?


DEFINITION OF "BORN": Born means having been given life.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/born


I will respond to the rest of your post at another time.

 

It was not written for Jews, it was written as I said before for God's people. And God's people are those who are called by God. Only those who are called by God rightly deserve the name chosen people. A true Jew is one that is inwardly and one that is a Jew by biological birth.

Romans 2:28-29 (ASV)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

You notice that it said "first BORN" not first created. And you also notice in Luke 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

You contradict yourself, it is either Jesus Christ was born or created and the Bible is very clear as you have pointed out Jesus Christ was born not created as you insist.

Colossians 1:15-17 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

This verse is very clear it is proclaiming the supremacy of the Son of God equal to God because Jesus and God are One.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:

The word "born" and the word "created" mean the same thing. They both mean someone else gave you life. The Bible also referred to Jesus Christ as the only-begotten son of Jehovah.

"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-BEGOTTEN son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." (John 1:14)

DEFINITION OF "BORN": "Born means having been given life."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/born


DEFINITION OF "CREATE": "To cause to exist; bring into being."
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/create
http://www.yourdictionary.com/create


DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
An image is not equal to what it reflects from. The words "The Son is the image of the invisible God" is simply telling us that Jesus Christ perfectly reflects Jehovah's qualities. Let me remind you that the Bible also says humans were made in God's image. Humans are not equal to God merely because they are made in his image; right? We don't even look like God because God is a spirit and we are flesh and blood. But because we reflect Jehovah's four outstanding attributes--(1) Love, (2) Wisdom, (3) Justice, and (4) Power--in that sense we are in his image.

"And God went on to say: 'Let us make man in our IMAGE, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.' " (Genesis 1:26)

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ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
Where does the Bible "imply many times that God is more than one person"? I need the name of the Bible book, chapter, and verse for each instance or at least a few examples. As for your statement about three persons one god, you are repeating what the Roman Catholics said in Article I of the Catholic Faith. Why are you telling me what I already said in my opening post? It's nothing but falsehood.


There is no such thing as "three persons one God." There are two persons (1) Jehovah the Father, and (2) Jesus Christ who was created by Jehovah. And there is one entity—the holy spirit, which is not a person at all. The holy spirit is a THING. It is Jehovah's active force, an extension of his power.


There is one Almighty God Jehovah. Jesus Christ the created angelic son, is a minor god in comparison to Almighty God Jehovah who created him. That's why John 1:1 ends with: "the Word was a god" in over 25 Bibles and commentaries. Meanwhile, Trinitarian Bibles render it "the Word was God." The latter rendering is a translation blunder that was done deliberately by Trinitarian translators.


Again, Jesus Christ exists in heaven as Jehovah's most powerful angel. God used Jesus Christ to help him create all other things, including other angels. All of the angels are minor gods, because the word "god" is a title that is applied to powerful beings. I can expand on this point about all the angels being gods if you wish.

 

Therefore, Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Jesus and God are One; fathered a child; "CREATE": "To cause to exist; bring into being." "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child." ; "Born means having been given life."

Now, add the Holy Spirit and we have the Trinity.

 

Reflecting God's qualities through Jesus Christ not through just any other human being but through Jesus Christ because God is represented and manifested by Jesus Christ in human form.

 

I am telling you, you are wrong in your assessment of the Trinity base on the evidences of the Bible, Three Persons in One. Not three different separate persons and three gods as you understand it. That is why I have set an example: you can be a plumber, a teacher, a writer, or a soldier which would still make you one person not separate and many Alter2Ego. God is Almighty, why can't you accept His infinite power that He can be Three in One just like you.

You are contradicting yourself again, why would God create minor "god"???? and if the Holy Spirit is a THING than why does it have the ability to empower people?? A thing is like a rock, are you saying the Holy Spirit is some kind of rock? That God will send a thing? God would send an angel over a thing.

I'll post it again apparently you have not read early post;
Genesis 1:26
Isaiah 48:16
Isaiah 61:1
Luke 4:14-19
Matthew 3:16-17
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
John 6:27
Acts 5:3-4
Isaiah 61:1

And many more verses that clearly mention the Holy Spirit, God and Son of God. If anti Trinitarians can not accept the definition or relationship of Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and God the Father then there is no reason for them to be Christians for there argument against the Trinity is in direct contradiction to the God the Father, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ as reveal in the Holy Bible.

 

So for the past 2,000 years a group of imposters has been going around calling themselves Jews when the real Jews are assorted Christians? This is world shattering news! I'll bet those Israelis are going to go ballistic. But then you included that part about having to be born one biologically. So if that's true then how does all of this work? It seems like everyone who isn't a Jew is wasting his time going to church praying to the Jewish God.

 

You want to resort to being sarcastic that's your choice but I'm not going to continue this discussion with you if you do.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:

Which version of the trinity are you applying the created/born/begotten Jesus Christ to? To your version? The reason why I ask is because the Trinity dogma that the Roman Catholics dreamed up in the 4th Century AD is not the one you are now presenting.

When the Protestants broke away from the Roman Catholics during the Religious Reformation in the 16th century AD, they copied the pagan-inspired Trinity from the Catholics. In turn, the Protestants broke up into some 33,000 denominations last time I checked. Just about all of the 33,000 denominations within Christendom are in agreement with the Roman Catholic version of the Trinity, copied below once again for your ease of reference. Keep your eyes on the words in all caps and bold within the quoted text. This time, I'm including a weblink for you to go and confirm that this is what's written in Article I.

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be THREE PERSONS, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."
http://www.victorianweb.org/religion/39articles.html


When you agreed with God's word, the Bible, and accepted that Jesus Christ was born/created/begotten/fathered, you rejected everything in that erroneous Article that is quoted above. What will you do now that you've seen the light? Are you going to thank Jehovah? Or do you want to continue fighting Him? If so, I will explain why Article I, quoted above, is in error on another day.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
If God died as a human (as Jesus Christ), that is a contraction of the scriptures that say he cannot die. I quoted two different scriptures to you already that say God cannot die (1 Timothy 6:16 and Psalms 102:12). Yet, here you are insisting he died as a human. You are fighting against God by insisting what he says in the Bible. You are refusing to allow the scriptures to correct your thinking because of your love affair with the pagan/false trinity.

Do you understand the meaning of the word "cannot"? The words "cannot die" do not come with an exception such as "except I can die as a human." Cannot die means NEVER dies. What is it about that don't you get? Notice a third scripture where Jehovah again says he cannot die, and keep your eyes on the words in bold print within the quotation.

"For I raise my hand to heaven, and I do say: As I am alive to time indefinite." (Deuteronomy 32:40)

Now, keep that in mind as you read the verse of scripture below. Again, keep your eyes on the text in bold print.


"upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting." (Titus 1:2)

Did you see that it says at Titus 1:2 that God cannot lie? Are you telling me God lied when he said he cannot die, because he then turned around and died as a human (as Jesus Christ)? Who are you going to listen to: the Bible or your religious leaders who are nothing more than mortal, sinful humans? Let me know.

 

Trinity is a kabbalahistic concept which has great value in that practice which was an early ttempt to show the pattern our mind throws over the puzzling sensory inputs from the external world.

The jews called this trinity, The Three mothers.

What Jesus did in 32AD was to express the source of this idea by personifying himself as the concept Truth.
Jesus said, I am the Truth,...

The implication of that is his "father" must be Reality, the image men can make of it in their mind.




To wit:

TRINITY:
Our Lord is (1) Truth, in whose (2) Spirit of mind we must commit our lives, in order to face (3) Father Nature, The Almighty, the Reality, within which we all exist.

 

The Trinity was founded upon what St John had been told by Jesus when he sent the letter of Revelation to him around 90AD.

Jesus explained that his new name would come to be established, and in fact, Trinity, has been that new name for 1700 years now:





Rev. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name, (Trinity, from 325 AD-2007, so

 

That is precisely the false notion the so-called jews want you and everyone else to believe.

The Bible was NOT written by jews, for jews and the jews are NOT God's chosen.

If you care to pursue the matter as to did write the Bible see Kerux Replies.

As an aside, the word Gentiles is not found in either the Old Testament nor the New,
which were of course originally written in Hebrew and Greek. Gentile is a Latin word.
It is derived from the Latin word gentilis, which means one who is not a Roman citizen.

The word that is often translated Gentile should be translated nation or nations.
Makes a big difference when it comes to interpretation.

 

Yep...

The Hebrew called all the peple surrounding them "dogs," which was a reference to the observable homosexulity that those matriarchial societies practiced, and the wide spread sexual promiscuity in general.

The Hebrew patriarchs were in the earliest days of Moses very much told by God to restrain their sexual behavior along the same lines as seen in the patriarchies of Islam, today.

 

The Trinity God the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity did not started in the 4th century it was already being define and started in the late 2nd century. It was in the 4th century that it became more wide spread and accepted by Catholics.

When the Protestant broke away from the Catholic church they thought they can start a more united church but instead they become the most fragmented Christian church of all.

Pay attention to the word ONE, the definition is very clear God the INFINITE POWER, VISIBLE and INVISIBLE, UNITY...THREE PERSONS of ONE SUBSTANCE. Not three substance, not three gods or three godheads.

You are basically dictating and putting limitation to what God or Jehovah is capable of doing, you are contradicting yourself the Bible is very clear but you chose to control what God have reveal and putting restrictions on Him.

I have always agreed with God's word in the Bible and in His infinite power but you have not in spite of the Bible's clear message God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Instead you define it as Jesus Christ the son of God is a minor god that is basically a pagan thinking why would God create a minor god? You define the Holy Spirit as a THING therefore not capable of inspiring or beholding men to the truth.

I do believe that you are not reading the true Bible but it is the book of Mormons. Remember, Christians are followers and worshipers of Jesus Christ thus making Jesus Christ God all Protestant accept the Trinity because just like Catholics they are Christians, Christians who worship Jesus Christ and recognize the presence of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as reveal in the Holy Scriptures. If you can not accept Jesus Christ is God then you are not a Christian, so the question is are you a Christian or not?