We are at the peak in world oil production...

One thing that can at least slow down the increasing price of gasoline(if not bring it actually bring it down), is if people slow down themselves. I was fine when the maximum speed limit everywhere was 55 mph, and would be fine with it being taken back to that. No one in the way *because* they drive an SUV with that kind of legislation.

 

I once drove 55. I knew 55. I worked with 55. 55 was a friend of mine. And you sir, are WRONG!! Jesus is it nice to blast across the western states at 80mph, 55mpg feels like walking nowadays. Fine for the overcrowded and generally poor driving abilities of those east of the Mississippi but dear lord those of us who do our maintenance, span the country on a regular basis and understand that yes, we will be giving up a little more gasoline to travel the same distance and are willing to do so to save some time, so let us keep doing it! We like it!

 

Once again...my perspective is not about what reserves exist or what fuels can be produced; my entire issue with oil is the affordability of fuel and it's effects on inflation. And I don't care how they do in Canada or the UK or China...only about it's potential effects in the USA. A couple of years ago we had $5/gallon fuel where I live and I guarantee you there was some economic panic!

You keep saying the alternatives are here yet 99% of the machines and equipment on Earth continue to require oil products. Either the alternatives are not available and/or they are not affordable to average people.

My discussion is not about buying premium items like a Rolls. My position is when gas hits $5/gallon people stop going out to eat, stop buying clothes, reduce traveling, etc. etc. People can't afford the gas in their own vehicles and can't afford the inflation from higher oil prices. Let this scenario continue for several months and the economy is going to be de-energized.

If the price of oil only effected baseball games then no big deal, but the price of oil effects 99% of our lives in the USA. Either we must tolerate higher prices/inflation as it unfolds or we must seek alternatives. To date the alternatives which exist basically only serve fringe America; we need alternatives that will excite the masses.

IMO even if a person creates an energy independence situation on their property, if the masses and society remain effected by higher oil prices, those with energy independence won't be able to afford the grocery store. It seems quite unnecessary IMO to risk going through this scenario. Yet I know governments and people are not going to prepare and once the oil hits the fan there won't be much fun for a while.

The FACT that the human species, and societies, continue to have repeated events, tells me that we ignore those events and revisit them over and over and over no matter the repeated pain. Eventually the deck will be stacked in such a way that a repeat event will force people and/or society to new lows. These new lows might last one month but what if they last for ten years or longer...

 

First...welcome Surfsup to PF and since it looks like you have things to say you're going to have fun here! If you ever have any questions about your experience, send me a message and I'll get involved.

Asking Americans to slow down is tantamount to asking Oprah to lose some weight...ain't going to happen! And if you truly wanted 55mph you would need to set the speed limit at 45mph (30mph in CA). Seems like us Americans go 100mph no matter if there might be a concrete wall coming up...we'll deal with it when it happens. But what forces us to slow down is the cost of living and the price of oil effects our entire cost of living. For this reason alone we need to pay attention to any potential downsides...

 

Okay, fine, some are going to panic...just like they did in the 70's when the same thing happened. Certainly I learned from that experience, and nowadays...panic? Nope. Prepared. I recommend Americans be taught their history better, that they might not panic.

Average people are already using alternatives, which as I've already said, will only continue to grow.

And the Canadians have been experiencing this for years (as well as the Europeans) and those things didn't happen. You do understand endless claiming a consequence to an effect which has already happened elsewhere requires an explanation why the consequence THIS time won't be the same, right?

It wasn't fun the last time it happened. I recommend more history but at the end of the day there is one consistent problem...you can't fix stupid. You want to panic and run around chicken little like? Fine..knock yourself out, just please don't assume that all Americans are so stupid that they can't, or already haven't, LEARNED. And pretending your government is going to help the average American out of their natural stupidity, please...

More history. We need to have fewer dumb people elected.

Certainly, the world getting crappy is a possibility. But just because of $5/gal? Nah...pick something cooler to trigger your favorite sky is falling scenario, cosmic collisions or North Korean EMP's or something, trying to sell $5/gal as an end to the world just doesn't hold up. You can believe it lf you'd like, but while the America you see is busy suffering panic and playing the "WOE IS US!!" victim routine, such behavior means there is coin to be made selling into such nonsense.

 

Yeah...I am from the East Coast. I'm sure it would be more miserable for some people out West, and 55 would even make it more expensive for some with traveling jobs because they would have to spend more nights in hotels. However, one thing to consider is that we're all in this together. We take care of each other either directly or indirectly whether we like each other or not. Even those who can afford $10 a gallon need cashiers to ring them up at the grocery store, stock the shelves at department store, or answer the phone at the doctor's office. If people with those jobs can't afford to serve themselves dinner, they can't serve us either.

 

This is true. Sort of like the Three Musketeers except its the Hundreds of Millions Musketeers.

Yep. Fortunately the price of gasoline is unlikely to go to $10/gal if the underlying cost/supply curve limits the next 7 trillion barrels of oil production at $150/bbl. Economic depression can be caused by all sorts of things, the $5/gal OldMan thinks will do it is certainly not enough, and the current estimates on how high the price of crude would have to go to bring another 200 years of production on line is maybe 50% than the cost of crude today. So $10/gal is hard to achieve without doing it the old fashioned way...government taxation to change our behavior for, as you mention, the common good.

And the most likely thing to cause an economic depression is therefore...US! Gasoline will just be a side note.

 

It is in the interest of the ruling class to limit our feeling of power and emasculate us. Woodrow Wilson said that the automobile would make plebeians have a feeling of personal strength and make them stand up to the ruling class, which as a member of that, he didn't want to happen.
So he sent them off to war to huddle terrified in foxholes and emotionally paralyzed for life.

 

So I've been using imaginary gasoline all these years? I'm more comfortable believing that than believing that idealistic, touchy-feely, warm-and-fuzzy treehuggers have been lying to us. They are just gentle people; they'd never do that. I just put a flower in my hair and the magic of imagination gets me where I want to go.

 

If we've learned anything in the past few years it should be that Americans are basically broke, living pay check to pay check, with little to no savings, and simply cannot weather economic downturns. This includes a huge portion of business and government as well. It makes no difference how or why we spend or don't save...the fact remains we are typically not fiscally responsible. Therefore, small negative influences on the economy and overnight tens of millions of Americans are in trouble. IMO rising fuel prices is one of these negative influences. When the average price of gasoline hits $5/gallon, and if conditions allow it to rise from there, the US economy is in big trouble. This can happen very quickly...like in weeks! If idiot Israel does a military attack on Iran, which happens to be the 4th largest supplier of oil today, gas prices will shoot up in a matter of days.

You keep talking about the alternatives or other options but your options cannot possibly work when 95% of the USA are not prepared.

As long as people like you ignore the potential outcomes of rising oil prices and other resource issues, the more pain the masses are going to feel. It makes no difference in the grand scheme of things what 'you' have done to prepare; these discussions must revolve around the masses. Fact remains the US is 100% dependent on oil...

 

Okay, we have a singularity, and fuel prices shoot up!! I just disagree that the economy rolling over and playing dead is what happens first. Not all Americans are ignorant about their transportation choices, and those who are will just have to learn the hard way. Surely YOU won't be victimized by higher prices? If you believe that a relatively small increase in prices will cause harm, you are undoubtedly prepared, as am I! So how have you prepared for this horrifying event of $5/gal?

You can't fix stupid. If someone doesn't learn from history, they are doomed to repeat it.

I have already TOLD you, I'm ready for higher fuel prices, so that I have an individual competitive advantage over those who do not. You have undoubtedly done the same, so why are you getting so worked up over it?

Good thing we have plenty of it around then, and those of us ready for it will look like geniuses when those Canadian prices hit the States!

 

You seem incapable of discussing the masses and keep referring to 'you'? What you or 3% of Americans have done is 100% meaningless in this discussion. $5-$6/gallon gasoline will guarantee an economic recession and perhaps a depression. And I guarantee 'you' that if 97% of Americans are feeling horrific economic pain, so will you. You and your 3% will be 'victimized by higher prices'!

I always enjoy the humor when I hear someone proclaim how they have enough food and water and gold and shelter and energy to live off grid...to which I say that individual can only claim this until someone else comes along and takes it from them. We must take steps to assure that the 97% of Americans won't feel so much pain from these types of occurrences that the US economy goes south for a long period of time. IMO the ONLY way to achieve this is to quickly reduce our 100% dependence on oil. There is low-hanging fruit and longer term actions to take but at least set goals as a NATION to reduce 10% in 5 years, then another 10% in 5 more years, and continue as long as we can reduce...

 

Basic economic theory says that if I can figure out ways to mitigate against fuel costs, SO CAN OTHERS. Each to their own desires. So you want to discuss the masses only? Fine. Then I shall use basic economic concepts with which to debate this with you.

$5-$6 gasoline has already happened in places in the States, and has been in Canada for most of this century probably. We had a recession, and then a recovery, and certainly no depression has happened. You are assuming a perfectly correlated inelastic relationship between economy and gasoline prices. In basic economic theory, it does not exist. See how easy to do this without saying "I"?

So right now everyone in Canada is feeling horrific economic pain, what with them paying $5-$6 gal? Must be pretty horrible to be Canadian right about now. How many years AFTER people see $5-$6/gal can we expect even a recession? 2? 5? Certainly they haven't seen a downturn since the last time the US did, and have been suffering horribly at high gas prices ever since!

Should we expect cross border incursions soon as they raid us for foodstuffs and such?

"We" must? You and the frog in your pocket? Certainly with a government which isn't good for anything, your next step will be to preach in the streets and convince people to do WHAT to change from their oil dependence? Bicycling? Walking? Do you have a favorite?

Sounds good to me. Economic theory would say that EXACTLY that this will happen with ever rising prices. So economic theory says higher prices will cause EXACTLY what you want. So just kick back, and wait for high enough gas prices to arrive and give you just what you want! This is good news!

 

Again, what an individual or 3% of the population do is quite meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The US is 100% dependent on oil, it is woven into the fabric of our society and economy. Financially, American people, business and government are not healthy! As long as we have a questionable economy and financial behavior, we remain very vulnerable. $5-$6/gallon fuel will place a huge burden on the 'masses' which means the economy will suffer.

Higher fuel prices equals inflation and equals reduced spending in other areas...nothing as you seem to suggest can be good about rising fuel prices.

Google the numerous websites like this one http://www.crossbordershopping.ca/blog/are-gas-prices-actually-cheaper-us to see how Canadians are crossing the border for cheaper US goods.

All of the alternatives which the 3% use to reduce their dependence on fossil fuels is available to the other 97%. The government can help with this conversion but it's human behavior which controls the conversion. Higher fuel prices will force some of this conversion but it also will force an economic burden on the USA and it's citizens. How it can be handled is the big question...

 

The traitors who own American oil companies publish these self-serving lies so they can gouge us mercilessly. Self-appointed experts have been talking about oil being about to run out ever since the 1880s. Go ahead and trust these thieves; real Americans would confiscate their property and their price-gouging wealth retroactively.

 

The ruling-class pigs are robbing us blind. Gasoline is only worth 12 cents a gallon. Why do we slavishly worship power and believe everything these pigs say?

 

Less than three percent of shares in 173 publicly-traded, U.S.-based oil and natural gas companies are owned by corporate management, contrary to the perception that a very small number of wealthy people are the major beneficiaries. An analysis released last month by the economic advisory firm Sonecon found that corporate management owns 2.8 percent of shares in those companies, while almost half – 48.9 percent – are owned by individuals, either through pension funds (31.2 percent) or Individual Retirement Accounts (17.7 percent). The remaining shares are owned by asset management companies – mutual funds – which account for 20.6 percent, and by institutional investors (6.6 percent). -

See more at: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/who...althy-few-analysis-finds#sthash.BoH8s5rs.dpuf

Seems your entire diatribe is baseless...

 

You mean pension funds? American citizens owning the stock in these companies? Bonds issued by municipalities purchased and then repaid from the dividends from these companies?

So now that you've labeled most people in the country as traitors, who do you envision is left, only poor people living on welfare?

I'm guessing most Americans aren't for socialism nor communism, but good luck with that.

- - - Updated - - -

You need to add a little inflation to what you think gasoline is "worth", but hey, anyone wanting to bring down the country in favor of communist ideals might be expected to think exactly that I suppose.

 

So anyone who opposes the tyranny of the rich must be a Communist? Your logic is a total fail. But you don't need to be intelligent if you've got the power of the rich bullies behind your bootlicking posts. We don't let private persons own our water, do we? If they did, they'd gouge us just like they do on gasoline, charging 30 times what it is worth.

As for average American citizens being traitors, the managers of these funds are the active owners of the stock and want to squeeze money out of consumers as much as they can. As for inflation-adjusted price, oil price-gouging is the main cause of inflation, so an honest price for gasoline would be a minor part of their personal budget for most people.

 

No. Anyone who supposes that all wealth and means of production should be nicely distributed among citizens must be a Communist. "Tyranny of the rich" would be exactly one of the phrases used to justify it as well.

No logic involved really. I just noted the natural meaning of your ridiculous claim. "Tyranny of the rich"....yes....like that isn't a dead giveaway for a tried and failed poliitcal configuration.

Are you mentally unbalanced, or do you just read poorly? Rich bullies? You mean, the working folks in America who own stock, or the pension funds who do?

Yes, we do. In the west they are called "water rights". We buy and sell them to each other even. Were you raised by mommy in a basement where you don't have access to the internet to learn stuff?

Actually, go the convenience store where you buy your water, grab yourself a nice pastic jug, odds are they DO charge you more for it than gasoline. So maybe not a basement, have you been in a cave somewhere for a few decades?

Stop revealing how poorly you understand where oil comes from, how it is priced, or even what "inflation" is. This is becoming embarrassing.

 

I just realized...someone who makes this statement might not be mentally unbalanced, but just uneducated or ignorant. So why don't we try this...please explain what you mean by "tyranny of the rich"? Do you mean it is unfair they can buy stuff that you can't? Is it unfair that someone wishes to make a profit? Should you be consulted prior to someone trying to create wealth for themselves? Do you have qualifications that would require this sort of approval? Does anyone? How much profit is enough in your eyes? What should be done with the surplus of profit...given away to homeless shelters? What part of economic theory do want to change to eliminate this claimed "tyranny"? How are you defining "tyranny"? Is it just people who use their money meanly, or use their money for anything? Should Bill Gates not be a philanthropist?

 

Massive, systematic, legal, institutionalized violation of everyone else's rights for the unearned profit of rich, greedy takers.

No, I mean it is unfair that rich, greedy takers' ability to do so has been obtained unjustly, through privilege, by violating others' rights without just compensation.

No, it is unfair that rich, greedy takers are legally empowered to make a profit by violating others' rights, without making any commensurate contribution to production.

Rich, greedy takers don't do that. They take wealth from the productive through their legal privileges.

Yes, I most certainly do: I am both intelligent and informed enough recognize greedy, evil, thieving parasitism when I see it, and I am both brave and honest enough to identify it as such explicitly.

Yep. You could, too, if you were intelligent, informed, brave and honest enough. Good luck with that.

As much as the value of one's contribution.

Retained by those who earned it, rather than legally stolen by rich, greedy takers.

The part that says the enormous inequalities of wealth and condition that characterize all capitalist economies, and which are only made tolerable in the more advanced countries by massive government spending at the expense of consumers and the productive, must somehow be justified by considerations of efficiency, merit, "Pareto optimality," legal tradition, tendentious definitions, absurd assumptions, the Coase Theorem, etc., etc., and cannot simply be the result of massive, systematic, institutionalized, and wholly unnecessary injustice.

Massive, systematic, institutionalized violation of rights without just compensation.

Stop pretending our objection is to how the rich use their money, and not to how they GET it.

Let him be a philanthropist, a profligate, an investor, a gambler, or a miser if he likes, as long as he is using money obtained justly, by commensurate contributions to production, and not unjustly, by legalized theft through privilege.

 

What is "unearned" profit? Dividends from stocks and bonds? Interest on a CD?

How does buying a dividend paying stock become unfair? Who's rights are violated when you do it? You when you buy it, or the person selling it to you?

I am not rich, and I bought a dividend paying stock. I violated no ones rights and certainly my investment makes no contribution to production. Certainly I am legally empowered to buy such a stock, why is that unfair and why do I have to be greedy to buy one? Do you have any investments or retirement account? Because if you do, you are apparently violating someones rights and whatnot.

Good thing he obtained his money to hand out the good old fashioned way by dropping out of college and being really smart then. Is it just the having of money which triggers this Pavlovian response to those who have managed to earn it legally by producing stuff?

 

Profits obtained without making any commensurate contribution to production. Dividends consist mostly of unearned profit, but the proportion varies from company to company, sector to sector, depending on the proportion of each corporation's profits that come from privilege rather than production. Bond interest might be obtained in return for a contribution, or it might be a pure return to privilege. It's impossible to say without exhaustively examining all the related financial statements. A CD's interest is probably earned, but the money to buy it probably wasn't.

When the company is profiting by privilege.

The rights violations are associated with the company's privileges, not your purchase of the stock. You merely buy the stock in order to get some of the unearned profit the company gets through its privileges.

Neither, obviously. It's inherent in the stock no matter who owns it.

The company that issued the stock is almost certainly violating people's rights. You have simply bought a right to collect a share of what it is unjustly taking from others. It is impossible to say how much of a contribution your investment makes to production without knowing all the details of the company's operations, as well as all the details of how it raised capital.

It is greedy because you are trying to get more than you either need or deserve through unjust means.

I probably am. I am certain that I have in the past. That's part of the pervasive, institutionalized injustice: you can't get away from it.

That's not how he obtained it, as proved by all the really smart people who dropped out of college and DIDN'T get any money.

He didn't get it by producing stuff. He got it by stopping others from producing stuff. That is very much the point.

 

I am sorry Roy that the reality of an unequal distribution of results is so disturbing to you. The world is unfair, and has been that way since before you were born. Blaming the way the world is on those who got the timing of a good idea right doesn't equate with folks having money only from ill gotten gains. Let alone the kind of Communism advocated by PrometheusBound being the solution.

I recommend education, relevant experience, and hard work. Time wasted on whining about how some have, and some have not, and wouldn't it be nice if those who have would just turn over everything to those who have not strikes me as not particularly productive in the greater scheme of things.