How do we heal the political divisions in America?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Kode, May 31, 2018.

  1. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I myself, am a Socialist and what used to be referred to as the Far Left. But even I understand that 'spoiled children' end up helpless.

    The hubris of thinking that because our bellies were full, we could afford the luxury of indulging feelings, is entirely to blame here. We lost any capacity to appreciate survival, and forgot how useful cruelty and shame are in driving survival instinct.
     
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  2. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    I certainly welcome that plan, but sure the hell don't know how you plan to do it. It's an Aegean stables situation, so hopefully your herculean effort will bear some fruit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh yes...how could I forget about getting rid of Gerrymandering?
    I would say that setting up a Ranked system would have a larger impact on polarization.
    But still, getting rid of gerrymandering ought to be something that we should be able to do almost effortlessly.
    And if we did, would pretty much guarantee an increased number of more competitive house races.
    All of these incumbent politicians in tailor-made self-serving gerrymandered 'safe' districts are indeed contributing to the polarization issue.

    -Meta
     
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  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I think you would do well to explain exactly how/why a ranked choice system would end these polarizing divisions.
     
  5. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Very well said!
     
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  6. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! It's not going to do anything, as far as I can see. Two completely different political philosophies are not going to find common ground because of a different voting method.
     
  7. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Huh? Where do you find communists complaining and "communists fighting so hard now"?
     
  8. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I'm still waiting for you to prove me wrong about this. You of all righties here have been very loud about rejecting every other news source but right wing media. What do you think the bytching about "liberal MSM" is about? It's a rejection of everything save right wing news media!
     
  9. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I asked a question. Why do you attack me?
     
  10. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    That's kinda the point of the bloody thread, now isn't it?
     
  11. Monster Zero

    Monster Zero Well-Known Member

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    Someone mentioned the phrase -

    "Typical "progressive" BS. " I like it


    More Typical "progressive" BS is that somebody still cares

    about Twitter at all - or what #metoo / Rose McGowan thinks ...






    ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  12. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    We get the government we deserve. As long as people are bitter and partisan our government will be bitter and partisan. We can't just make people not bitter and partisan, they have to choose to change.
     
  13. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    And the right are not shy about saying anyone to the left of Genghis Khan is a commie, elitist, snowflake, mooch, muslim, degenerate. Calling liberals pedophiles for NO reason whatsoever, yeh, that's gonna get you LOTS of bipartisan support
     
  14. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    As a political strategy, you have a point. The truth is a different kettle of fish, and I note you don't have a lot to say concerning "I am not a communist!"
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  15. Monster Zero

    Monster Zero Well-Known Member

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    The Media is Deliberately Manipulating Us Daily ...The media deliberately divides people!

    And not the USUAL 'CNN CROSSFIRE' way ... R v. L


    Deliberately and on DAILY STEROIDS:

    white v. black

    men v. women

    gay v. straight


    ANYONE SEES HOW BAD IT IS FAILING TOO



    Deliberately , what is wrong with this picture ...?




    :thumbsdown:
    ...
     
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  16. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Would there be any point to it?
     
  17. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    To understand how a ranked system will help to depolarize the country, we first need to understand what it is that really causes that polarization in the first place. Is it intractable disagreement? Certainly that cannot be the only thing, as in the past, our country has repeatedly been able to find a middle-ground in such cases, no reason we should not be able to do the same today. Perhaps then, we have simply forgotten how to find that middle-ground. If so, the question is why...

    Thing is, it appears to me that a lot of people seem to have been fooled into thinking that for any given problem or on any given issue, that there are, at most, only two possible options for how to deal with it. That there is no middle-ground at all between the extremes in other words.

    Take something like abortion for example, specifically the question of at what point life begins...it may be a special case (for a number of reasons), but it highlights what I mean fairly well. You have people in that particular debate that honestly believe the only two positions one can take on the issue are either a) life begins at conception or b) life begins at birth, and formulate their arguments from that basis. But it only takes one a few moments of really thinking about the question to realize that the a-b dichotomy is far from truth...that there are in fact an entire range of other options in between those two extremes.

    Other seemingly binary issues are much the same, yet people far too often seem for whatever reason unwilling to attempt to discover or acknowledge the existence of that middle-ground, let-alone try to move towards it. Could it be simple intellectual laziness? Yes, perhaps that plays a part. Or perhaps it is that even if such a middle-ground range of options were to be known, people are yet unaware of how to find a consensus position from among that range within a group of individuals who's own views may lie at any given point on the spectrum...for one cannot always simply choose the center-point between the extremes and call that a fair compromise, so why even bother. But...what I believe to be the key contributing factor to binary thinking in our society is none other than our current FPTP Plurality election system, as it not only encourages such a way of thinking...it downright mandates it!

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Like the abortion debate or any other issue, in truth there are a wide range of policy positions in between what is typically offered by the two 'main parties'. But it is certainly not a mere case of intellectual laziness which causes that particular middle-ground to be ignored, as each and every one of us are essentially forced by our flawed election system to choose between picking one of the two extremes as pre-chosen through a usually very polarized primary process, or take the high risk of not having our vote influence the election by going with something other than a 'main party' candidate.

    Just consider for a moment, the thought processes of a voter as they walk into that voting booth on election day. Suppose that we have two extreme 'main party' candidates running in this election from either side of the political spectrum, and that we have a third moderate candidate that is squarely in the middle of the other two and running as an independent or as part of a third party. Now let's suppose that our voter is pretty centrist themselves, but leans slightly one way or the other and also has at least a cursory understanding of the track record of independents and third parties in major elections. Who do they choose to vote for?

    They may in fact really like the moderate candidate and even prefer them...heck...a majority of the voters may prefer the moderate! But...each of those voters is going to be thinking to themselves in that booth, and rightfully so, that if they cast their individual vote for that moderate candidate, that what they are really doing is wasting their vote and simply increasing the chances that their least preferred extremist candidate wins instead...

    ...and so, they go with the extremist candidate for whichever way they lean in the belief that that candidate is more likely to win than the moderate of whom they prefer. Some may argue that that justification for picking a candidate you don't really like is part of the problem, but it is a perfectly rational way to handle things the way I see it, given the circumstances. The real problem imo is a system which forces voters to have to make such a choice in the first place.
    Either way, tons of voters who prefer the moderate will end up voting for one of the extremists. And of those voters who actually prefer one of the extremists...well, obviously they're going to vote for one of the extremists too because....why wouldn't they...And as such we end up electing extremists....time...and...time...and time again, only for things to become gradually more extreme each election cycle, as those elected extremists influence the voters into becoming more extreme themselves,...luring them into the illusion that such extremism is normal, that it is accepted, even expected if one wants to win, as people often tend to emulate what they see in their leaders. Elect extremists, the people see it, and they become more extreme, and in turn elect even more extreme leaders. And so extremists from the two increasingly polarized sides take turns winning elections, switching places every now and then, each using their power to scare the other side of the political divide further into supporting ever-more extreme candidates in an effort to 'reverse' the perceived damage done by the last extremist of the opposing side...

    ...and this endless cycle, all of it turning a false dichotomy into one of real devastating consequence...
    This in turn unfortunately only acts to foster a general attitude of division...
    a mindset of...you're either with us, or ag'in' us.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So to recap...for polarizing binary thinking we have here three possible contributing factors:
    1) intellectual laziness/not attempting to discover the middle-ground
    2) lack of an understanding for how to find a consensus from among a group
    3) an election system which encourages binary thinking by forcing binary choices

    So why do I focus so much on number 3? Simple....1 and 2 are certainly problems, but they are problems which are inherent in individuals. We can of course each do our part to educate our fellow citizens, and try that way to get them to change their behavior, but in the end, hard as it may sometimes be to change a system...still, it is much easier to change systems than it is to change people.

    And I do believe if we were to change the system as I've suggested,...to replace Plurality voting with a Ranked system,...that the people would in fact change for the better over time.

    The first way that a Ranked system would do this, would be by simply giving/showing voters their full range of options rather than artificially limiting their choices to two. If a voter understands that there are more than two options, for a particular election or in general, then they are much more likely to be able to comprehend a middle-ground.

    Second, a ranked system will lead to more moderate results, and if you read the rest of my post, you'll remember that people tend to emulate the traits they see in their leaders, so overtime one expects that the population would moderate as well. It would though be a slow process; the polarization which the current strain of politicians have rubbed off onto the general populous took time to get there, and it will take time for it to be removed. But.......

    .....while it will take time for the people at large to become less polarized, the politicians themselves and government by extension would change almost immediately. Following a switch to a ranked system, politicians would in short order become much more moderate as they found themselves forced to compete with suddenly viable third parties and independents running in-between the two current parties as moderate alternatives, and the dysfunction we see today would without a doubt become a thing of the past overnight. Even if we find ourselves impatiently waiting for our neighbors to become less polarized and discontinue their binary thinking, the immediate change to the politicians ought to be reason enough on its own for the switch.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Such is the nature of a change to the system. It is certainly the case that one need not always understand the middle-ground or consensus in order to contribute to a system which results in its finding. And while it may take a united effort to actually see such a Ranked system put in place, simply proving that a middle-ground can be found and a consensus position fairly chossen is a simple enough task which I can handle practically by myself. Its tougher than your standard political argument sure, but it isn't so Herculean of a task as to be un-doable. Consider the list at the bottom of this post:
    Ranked Vote: Discussion Thread

    Through those various ranked votes, what I have essentially done is found the consensus position of political forum posters (or at least that of those who participated) on those varying topics. For instance, the consensus view of political forum is that Chocolate is the best flavor of ice cream, carrots, potatoes, and green peas are the best vegetables, Androids/Google Phones are the best smart phones, and dogs are the best pets followed closely by cats. Because none of those votes were on particularly polarizing subjects, one cannot easily use them to tell the difference between a ranked system and plurality (save for possibly the vegetable vote). Their purpose was mainly just to familiarize members with the process. However, a vote is now currently ongoing which aims to identify the political forum consensus view on what the number 1 political issue is in the U.S. This marks the first point at which positions regarding these votes will likely start to become a lot more polarized.
    What are the Nation's Top Issues Most Needing to be Addressed (US)

    And yet...there is no reason to believe that in this vote, or in any that are to follow, that a similar consensus position can not be found. The Plurality method will have trouble, but the ranked methods will be able to find the option which lies among the middle-ground. Coincidentally, I set those discussion threads up in addition to the Ranked votes, specifically for the purpose of identifying the full spectrum of the issues (to include the middle-ground) prior to votes on those subjects. Each one already has a substantial list of options recorded in them, which I would say firmly dispels any inkling of the nonexistence of a middle-ground in those areas.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So I say again, that this is not so tough of a task...To simply prove the existence of a middle-ground and then our ability to compromise through the finding of consensus within it.

    However....what I personally do have trouble with, is summarizing these views in a way that still makes sense, or at least summarizing them without accompanying that summary with a less than brief record of the full thought. In my last couple of posts, I actually included links which already contained explanations for why Ranked voting would reduce partisanship, but assume now that you two, as well as others, have been frightened away from reading them by their length.

    The funny thing is though, that this post here has now become even longer than those explanations, even though I originally intended it to be only a few paragraphs. Sometimes I suppose that I just can't help myself from being thorough. So.... @Belch, @Kode,...since you both were interested, let me ask you this....now that you've read my post to the end,...do you understand all the things I talked about in it?...And if so, how would you attempt to summarize it to someone else in such a way that still got the main points across??

    -Meta
     
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  18. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    repeat
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  19. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    When you start out assuming that the only reason the left has political opposition is because of Fox news and talk radio you certainly did. Would you thing it unbiased to assume the only reason there are any leftist is because they only listen to MSNBC?
     
  20. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Nah the left control most of the media, their snottiness reaches far and wide. I think you are using this site as a bellwether, where as country wide republican attitude before Hillary's deplorable and a very revealing election was the heartlands simply wanted some economic changes! The left has made this personal between voters when the right was against Mr. Obatards policies..

    Now the left have the heart lands full attention and their dander up :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  21. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    There have been dozens of quite effective and powerful third parties in the country. Almost none however since the 1930's. Why because the Dems and Republicans have gotten very good at stealing there thunder. Even if they never do anything but give the proposition they stole lip service, sometimes it's just a plank in the platform to which no politician in either party ever even refers.

    By the way the two polar positions only matter on issues where truthfully almost no one occupies the Middle ground. Abortion is one of those. You said there are several other possible positions but only one of them has a countable following, and that's life begins at viability, which as med tech improves drops in terms of months almost yearly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  22. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    I suppose you could just be that superficial. Brava....
     
  23. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Most Americans view the government itself as the top problem this nation has.

    http://news.gallup.com/poll/234578/...utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication

    What I think has happened is that our two major parties have continued to move further left and further right out of mainstream America. Leaving middle America behind. Roughly 75-80% of all Americans identified or affiliated with one or the other party from WWII to around 1980. Only 20-25% of the electorate identified themselves as independents. But that time period was when both parties had their liberal and conservative wings. The Democrats had the conservative south and the Republicans, the so called Rockefeller Republicans owned the Northeast. There wasn't that big of an ideological gap between the parties. The ideological battles took place within the parties in determining their candidates. Ideology usually took a backseat for both parties during this time period as each attempted to find the best candidate that could win in November.

    From 1980-2010 as the two parties moved more and more to the left and the right, shedding conservative and liberal wings along with losing a lot of the more moderate folks, the two major parties strength among the electorate fell 60-65% range with independents rising to the 30-35%. Since 2010 the two major parties becoming more hard core ideologues continued to lose folks classified as middle America, those in the center, center right and center left. Today, Gallup puts party affiliation at 29% Democrat, 26% Republican and 45% independent. That's 55% of the total electorate today that identify with the two major parties. The shrinking parties has also left those who remained hard core ideologues. There are no more or very few moderates left within either party and neither party represents middle America where most of us are.

    That's quite a drop from 80% down to 55% of the political strength of both major parties. But both major parties hold as much power over our two party system today if not more than when they made up 80% or so of the total electorate. The two parties have become more ideological pure while more people have deserted them. This shrinking has caused our polarization. There are no more moderates or those who can work across the aisle with the other side to get things done. Those folks have been shed by the two parties. Middle America doesn't have a political party to call home anymore.

    I don't think there is a solution to this. The hard core ideologues of the left and right, of both parties don't want middle America back. They just want their votes in November. Both parties are happy that the more moderate factions have left their party. Both parties can now choose their candidates that are ideological pure with out having to placate middle America, those in the center, center right and center left. Hence we end up with two candidates disliked by approximately 60% of all America running for president. Two candidates most of us didn't want to become the next president. We get two candidates where one has a 36% favorable vs. one with a 38% favorable. The two lowest favorable ratings of any major party candidates ever. Only two other major party candidates ever had a favorable rating of lower than 50%, Goldwater in 1964 at 43% and G.H.W. Bush at 46% in 1992. Now Trump and Clinton holds the record for the lowest favorable rating in history.
     
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  24. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    The US was never a socialist country, except in relation to their treatment of Native Americans. The Depression after the stock market crash was caused by Hoover acting like a leftist, raising taxes in the wake of an economic downturn. It became Great when FDR, a seasoned leftist, did what leftists do best, doubled down on Hoover by trying to tax us out of the Depression. The Federal Government never attempted to own the means of production except in relation to interstate commerce, oh, and the ramp up of the war machine.

    Except in relation to Native Americans, people never died trying to maintain ownership of their stuff.

    There's a difference between socialism and the ebb and flow of the social welfare state.
     
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  25. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Socialism doesn't mean the state will take yer stuff away or kill you doing as such, that is a different action than a political action.. and socialism was done on a scale by the govt. to not interfere with commercial enterprises but capitalist was despised, and WWII was all govt. paid..
     

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