The Truth About the Second Amendment

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by 6Gunner, Aug 13, 2018.

  1. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Did you miss my post to you where I told you that I'm not an American or gun owner? Anyway, perhaps you can direct me to a source which specifies just exactly how close to the regular military a militia must be.
     
  2. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    so your comment about God was not an attempt to undermine the fact that the second amendment was intended to ratify or recognize a right the founders believed men were endowed with from the start of time?
     
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  3. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    No, your linguist argument is what is not to be taken seriously!
     
  4. dave8383

    dave8383 Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Not even close.
     
  5. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    Have you noticed he's yet to respond to posts 596, 602 and 603?
     
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  6. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    No I hadn't until now. Give him time though. He may be wrong, but he's pretty good at replying and arguing his position. And regarding post 603, I notice that you didn't tag him or quote him, so he may not see it.
     
  7. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    What always seems obvious is that words are human constructs totally relative to how humans use them. What they mean is what humans decide, when they decide.
     
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  8. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Does such mean that what was intended by the words used at the time of the drafting of a piece of legislation, is no longer of any importance as time passes and the usage of the words by society changes?
     
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What would you say about the thirteenth amendment?
     
  10. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    In what way would they be outdated? The available database was smaller than it is today, but it was quite large. BYU has since updated the database and put it online. So anybody can do the search. Some linguists recently did a new search that confirmed the findings described in the Amicus Brief.

    "But Scalia was wrong. Two new databases of English writing from the founding era confirm that “bear arms” is a military term. Non-military uses of “bear arms” are not just rare — they’re almost nonexistent.

    A search of Brigham Young University’s new online Corpus of Founding Era American English, with more than 95,000 texts and 138 million words, yields 281 instances of the phrase “bear arms.” BYU’s Corpus of Early Modern English, with 40,000 texts and close to 1.3 billion words, shows 1,572 instances of the phrase. Subtracting about 350 duplicate matches, that leaves about 1,500 separate occurrences of “bear arms” in the 17th and 18th centuries, and only a handful don’t refer to war, soldiering or organized, armed action. These databases confirm that the natural meaning of “bear arms” in the framers’ day was military."
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...38d9dbd6_story.html?__twitter_impression=true
    It was not considered. That was an argument submitted by the Heller side during the hearings. The Amicus Brief indicates that in all instances in which the phrase was used as a non-military idiom a qualifier was needed.

    It's the difference between somebody saying to you "I'm going to hit the road, now" vs "I'm going to hit the road with a sledgehammer, now" The underlined qualifier is necessary to change the meaning of the idiom.

    This is why linguists don't do law without consulting a legal expert. And why legal experts shouldn't do linguistics without consulting a linguist. In the mind of the everyday citizen, there is no doubt the phrase referred to a military. use of weapons. Scalia screwed up. But he is too intelligent to have done it on purpose.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  11. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    You didn't read my posts or the link I gave. Your three professors only considered what they could find - a more recent and advanced search did find more non-qualified examples. Your evidence is simply incomplete.
     
  12. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    No individual right is even mentioned.
     
  13. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    That's the best proof - without a specific granting of power to the federal government, none is given. Additionally, the only reason for the creation of the Bill of Rights was to satisfy the Anti-federalist concerns about federal overreach.
     
  14. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    The right to defend "the security of a free state". At least that's what it says...

    But more than what the founders "thought", it matters much more what it meant in the mind of a typical citizen of the era.
     
  15. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of amendments or rights, congress was never given any legislative power to restrict the acquisition or possession of firearms by the people of the several states.
     
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  16. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Right. "Keep" as it refers to "bear arms". As in "keep the arms in good working order" Just like in "house-keeper" the "keeper' part doesn't refer to the owner, but the person who "keeps" the house.

    What follows in your message is irrelevant. We have already established that the courts have ruled for an individual "right" to own weapons. And it's now the Law of the Land. But ithat decision cannot be logically upheld as a consequence of the text in the 2nd Amendment.

    Exactly! Because no qualifiers are necessary when "bear arms" refer to military activity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  17. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Why? It does not apply to you
     
  18. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    They were under the commerce clause
     
  19. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Do you know what commerce means? Owning a firearm is not commerce.
     
  20. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Buying one is
     
  21. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    It's not commerce among the several states if you buy it or make it within your state.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
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  22. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    It is according to scotus
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  23. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So, as I said, congress was never given any legislative power to restrict the acquisition or possession of firearms by the people of the several states.
     
  24. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    As I said....according to scotus the federal government has this power
     
  25. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Ah, but not according to the constitution, which was my point. Got it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
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