I just realized something, almost like an epiphany. Red states like to kill people.

It is indeed a philosophical question based on pragmatism.

Your Covid analogy still confuses me, unless of course, you are of the belief that Covid is no worse than the common flu. Is that what you are implying?

 

And not based on scientific fact.

My analogy is simple. Those that argue for abortion because the ZEF "isn't human until <insert whatever date/idea here after inception>" is ignoring science in favor of societal issues. Those that ignored covid science are doing the same exact thing. Ignoring science in favor of societal issues.

 

Science shows us that human consciousness is developed. It does not happen all at once. It is for this reason why we create different grades to place students in school. It is why we don't allow minors in general to sign contracts.

If we're going to treat conception as some "miracle", then why is there no support for that same level of reverence past birth? Either something is, or it isn't, right?

(I'm not even going to bother with your Covid analogy in order not to derail the thread)

 

Btw...this conversation is reminding me of Tom McDonald's "People so Stupid" video. Specifically the part where he says "bacteria is life on mars but a heartbeat isn't life on earth?". Not directing this at anyone or anything. Just that his words ring true. :shrugs: Here's the vid if you want to watch...

 

1st: You're confusing consciousness with knowledge and life. Consciousness is simply being able to say "I think, therefore I am". Knowledge is the accumulation of information. Both are not relevant to whether something is considered a life or not. A bee is a life. Bacteria is a life. None of them have any known consciousness or ability to gather knowledge. Yet they are still considered as life.

2nd: Covid was mentioned in the OP. In fact it was a major reason why the OP had the "epiphany". As such you are not derailing anything by talking about it.

 

I'm not confusing what consciousness and knowledge are, but let me ask you, do you think a fetus has a conscience? Because the arguments I hear from those who are pro-life sure make it sound like they believe it does.

And you're right, I forgot that the OP had mentioned Covid. It's easy to get lost in the threads.

 

I'm not going to get dragged into an abortion debate. The only purpose of my posting regarding this is to show that both sides have their issues where they prioritize societal issues over science and visa versa. This is done in the spirit of this thread where the OP complained about how "red states" were ignoring science and therefore were for killing people.

I will say that I am pro-life on a personal level, but am pro-choice on a political level.

 

Fair enough.

 

My issue with that view is that LIFE is a physical thing. When talking about what constitutes a human life, there is an objective physical reality the law relies upon (or SHOULD rely upon) for definition. Where there is controversy, it is over the physical definition of a human life (at conception, at birth, somewhere in between). IMO, whether we as society legally protect "a human life" does not and should not depend on whether it is "wanted" or "valued" by anyone else, including family, victims, others in society etc. It is ridiculous that the same human life could be legally killed by its mother, yet if killed by another that person could be prosecuted for doing so. How the pregnant woman (or anyone else, really) "feels" about that life (or potential of life) doesn't change what PHYSICALLY EXISTS. If it is truly only "potential life", then ending it is not murder. If it truly is "a human life", then ending it is murder.

 

I just realized something, almost like an epiphany. Red states like to kill people.

Of course. It is such fun. Give me a break.

 

Just curious, do you feel the same way about education, healthcare or gun policy?

 

Pandemicide is not the outcome of ill-advised, ignorant, or outright stupid budget actions and health messages. I do not even level the charge over Trump’s denunciation of mask use and opposition to temporary business and school closures to halt the spread of SARS-CoV-2, encouraging people to “liberate” states that were implementing tough lockdown regulations.

Rather, the path of pandemicide was paved in pursuit of the president’s reelection and his relentless, all-consuming post-election campaign to refute his opponent’s victory, claiming election fraud and even theft. Despite the summer surge in COVID-19 infections nationwide, Trump abandoned virtual campaigning in favor of crowded, largely maskless gatherings of his supporters, knowingly risking that each rally would become a superspreader event. According to a study by Stanford University, 18 campaign rallies held between June 20 and Sept. 22, 2020, spawned in excess of 30,000 COVID-19 cases, likely leading to more than 700 deaths. During the same time period, half of Trump’s campaign rallies were followed by COVID-19 surges in the counties in which they took place. While Biden’s campaign rallies were largely virtual or held in parking areas with participants in their vehicles, Trump’s tightly packed, mostly mask-free throngs increased in both number and frequency, further spreading the virus and causing the U.S. government’s top COVID-19 response expert, Anthony Fauci, to warn that the president was “asking for trouble.”
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/18/trump-is-guilty-of-pandemicide/

 

Show me where I'm wrong.

 

You do realize that a "more perfect society" is an objective thing? And that there are differing ways to accomplish said societies? So yes, I do feel the same way about those things.

 

The whole point being is that if we are going to take a literal definition to protect life, then it should be consistent, which is why the OP brought up the whole issue of capital punishment. If that is the direction we as a society want to take, then we have to be consistent across the board. That means no death penalty and no wars, and something tells me that ain't going to happen anytime soon.

 

Disproving mindless stupidity is never worth the effort.

 

Well, if anyone would know about mindless stupidity as well as being a textbook example, that person could best be found by you upon looking in a mirror,

 

Nice post... Wish we had more like you.

 

Yet New York and CA are doing a far better of keeping the pandemic going. Cuomo is under investigation and Newsome is being hit with a recall petition.

 

LOL, and to think I purposely resisted the grade-school level “look in the mirror”.

 

Agreed. Thanks.

 

LOL! That could have interesting results. Maybe the volunteer will end up with a sword that slides right out of his fist when he squeezes it just so. Or a horn that sprouts out of his forehead, making him a unicorn.

 

Were they prisoners, or people sentenced to so many hours of community service while on probation for misdemeanors?

 

They still have draconian drug laws, too. I avoid it like the plague ... don't want to pay a fine and have my vaporizer confiscated.

 

Yep. I posted links in #51.