Revisited: America is a representative democracy, a federal democratic constitutional republic.

It's both, in principle, though some could argue that it is an oligarchy as a practical matter.

Let's just stick to principles.

So the folks who claim that American is not a democracy, that is a bogus claim.

Mark Levin has been spewing this nonsense, and now his cancer is spreading, Sen. Mike Lee recently tweeted America is not a democracy. A number of the right on this forum are dispensing this nonsense, as well.

In my 72 years, in speeches by congresspersons, senators, presidences, professions and civic leaders, in my entire life I've always been told that one of America's core values is that of democracy. We are included among the 50 or so 'western liberal democracies'. And when we speak of Democracy, NO ONE means 'pure democracy' and to make that argument is a strawman.

When the term 'democracy' is spoken in the halls of congress, the senate, the presidency (historically) in academia, and just about every place in the land where aspiring high minded language is given on the subject, America has been spoken of as a democracy. The term is more aspirational, more poetic, more high minded, not so much 'legal' like the term 'Republic' is, which is why you will see it in documents more, but not in high minded speeches, of which there are thousands given, spoken, and written in the last 2 centuries on this subject when speaking of America and her values.

But, the term, as it is often used, has a broad meaning, it doesn't mean, per se; 'people voting for laws', the kind of voting that occurred during Athens Greece in antiquity. All of the western liberal democracies are representative democracies, and republics, and thus the terms are not mutually exclusive. A democracy is a civilization of the rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, held together with a constitution, it is a both a broad term, used that way most often, but it can just refer to voting, as well, It's both, and a Republic, technically, is a system of government as opposed to a monarchy, where leaders are either appointed OR elected. So, Republic, in terms of structure, is the broader term, but within the 'elected' side, Democracy is the broader term, and you can narrow it from there.

The Republican's gross misunderstanding of this point stems from how Madison uses the term in the federalist papers, but his use of the term is NOT the final word on the subject. It defies centuries of usage in the broader sense. The Encyclopedia Britannica tells us that even Madison's contemporaries viewed his definition as an aberration.

Even among his contemporaries, Madison’s refusal to apply the term democracy to representative governments, even those based on broad electorates, was aberrant.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/democracy/Democracy-or-republic

And what does Hamilton say about it? In a letter from Alexander Hamilton to Gouverneur Morris, dated 19 May 1777, Hamilton wrote:

"But a representative democracy, where the right of election is well secured and regulated & the exercise of the legislative, executive and judiciary authorities, is vested in select persons, chosen really and nominally by the people, will, in my opinion be most likely to be happy, regular and durable."

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Hamilton/01-01-02-0162

And, again, in Federalist 22 Hamilton writes:

"....that fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail."

Hamilton was highlighting the necessity for a government system where the majority's opinion is central to its function and decision-making process,

And, then by Merriam-Webster:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/democracy-and-republic

...democracy and republic are frequently used to mean the same thing: a government in which the people vote for their leaders.

This is right off the Government's website

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/lesson-plans/Government_and_You_handouts.pdf

Democracy in the United States.

The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens’ ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy. Citizens can also contact their officials when they want to support or change a law. Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.

So, you republicans who fear democracy, it's probably because y'all have been losing elections a lot, and the more y'all lose elections, the more I hear you guys spewing this nonsense, and you really need to stop it. It's like a cancer spreading.

Yes, yes, yes, I hear Republicans argument that the framers didn't want 'mob rule'.

But that doesn't mean 'minority rule' either.

What they feared was the masses, the uneducated, and they called these "factions", smaller groups of people organized for a single cause, folks who didn't look and act and weren't as rich as people like Hamilton and Madison. they didn't come out and explicitly say it, but when I read their texts, their words reek of this, to my eyes. "In my opinion". Can I prove that idea, no, it's just an opinion but I think it is not unreasonable. But they did fear 'factions'.

Other than that opinion, I believe it is fair to say that America is a federal constitutional democratic republic, and a 'representative democracy' and that these terms are not mutually exclusive.

Representative democracy. Why is it called that? Because legislation is voted on by representatives.

Direct voting is held on:

congresspersons
Senators.
Governors
Mayors
Municipal and state office holders of various types.
State Ballot initiatives (yes, 'direct democracy' in many states).

The ONLY elections that are not direct of for legislation and the president.

Two, out of hundreds of elections in America.

Where there is a substantial amount of voting by citizens, you have a democracy. Call it anything you want, but descriptively speaking, it's a democracy. Now, if you want to get specific, which doesn't squash democracy concept at all, you can call it a 'constitutional republic' or a 'federal democratic constitutional republic' or anything you want, but it's still a democracy, a democracy of a certain type. So quit saying it isn't. That's a lie, and a BIG lie, at that.

So don't give me this crap that America is not a democracy.

One of the better videos on the subject is the one by Leejah Miller, who argues, like me, in principle it is both. But, she says, in practice, it's neither (the more cynical view, and I can understand it, but I don't agree with it, not yet, anyway, maybe in another 10 - 20 years, perhaps, since we are headed in that direction with guys like Trump).



Well, I got bad news for you guys on the right, that's all we have now are mobs.

Do you mean to tell me that 81,000,000 votes for Biden is a 'mob' and 74,000,000 votes for Trump is not a mob? Your contention is absurd on its face, when you scrutinize it.

Yes, the framers were worried about majority stomping on the minority, so what they did, was temper the majority with an electoral college, which boosted voice of smaller states, and 2 senators per state, which did the same. They went further than this, by constructing a federal government, where governance is shared between the federal government and the states, of which the federal government is further tempered by a bicameral legislature.

However, the salient point is, they NEVER intended on 'minority rule'. They understood it was possible for the EC to elect someone with a minority popular vote, but it was expected to be a rare occurrence, and that when that happened, it would be a price they were willing to pay for the benefit of how an EC prevents the bigger states from smashing the smaller states. But, they expected both to be the majority. If that wasn't true, we'd have seen many more instances of popular vote being in the minority,. but it has happened only five times, so I believe that is a reasonable opinion to hold about it.

 

I'll take Mark Levin's opinion over some anonymous dude on the internet.

 

quite frankly it YOUR misunderstanding of the intent of the framers. The word "democracy" doesn't apply to the system the framers created. The attempt to spin their intent by adding additional adjective to the work is pure hokem. It's NOT the right that doesn't understand their goals and intention - we have there words in the Federalist Papers and elsewhere.

And the majority DOES prevail at the state level as designed. They also spent time on the Presidential election process because the understood a simple nation wide majority wouldn't support their objectives. The electoral college still gives large power to big states while affording smaller states some voice in the process.

You need to re-read a few of those Federalist Papers - the writers were more concerned out the tyranny of the majority; they debated endless hours trying to find a compromise solution. They talk in several about the dangers of "factions" subverting the system by majority power.[/quote]

 

Lotta words about Democracy and the will of the people. Lotta MSM hacks saying that Trump leading Biden in the polls is a threat to our Democracy. Voting for a preferred candidate in a free election is now a threat to Democracy according to neocons/neolibs. We could be in the interesting position where Trump wins both the electoral and popular vote while the Democrats are trying to put him in prison. Not sure how Democratic that is. I believe the power elite believe Democratic means anything that furthers their interests. It is THEIR consensus that matters, the plebes do not count in THEIR Democracy. In sum, I don't think they are using the term in the same way that you are.

Regarding Democracy, Alexandar Hamilton commented:

How insightful Mr Hamilton was. We are literally voting for one monster or the other monster and pretending that any of these scum care about anything other than looting out the country for their own power and wealth. It has happened my entire life. It would be nice if we had an elite class that hid their hatred and contempt for us.

 

Leftists push for a direct democracy so they can use the votes of ill-informed voters to deprive citizens of their rights.

 

There is something seriously and mentally wrong with Mark Levin. Of this, I am very confident.

 

Why are you so obsessed with claiming we are.

Cite in any of our founding documents where democracy is even mentioned. I can cite to you where the one that designed our government specifically guaranties a REPUBLIC to govern our FEDERAL system. You insist on trying to morph that into a democracy when in fact we have NO federal elections no national voting on ANYTHING. You don't even have an expressed and guarantied right to vote for the President, your STATE elects the President. If we were a democracy don't you think we'd have a national election in which we all voted together as one body to elect the leader of the country?

The founding fathers abhorred democracy being well aware of the attempts at such governing in past history.

 

Then you should have no problem refuting what he says on the matter, can you?

 

This post^ seems a bit desperate and even deflective, Levin is a shill and a bad one at that. If you can't see this, you must be a Trump supporter and have an affinity for putting matches to gas.

 

Because you hate Jews?

 

Is this your legit train of thought or are you just confused posting again? Maybe, it's just desperate strawmen grasping for something to rail against? Maybe try a tree

 

Watch Leejah's video, she is far more versed in this. That's about the best I can say about it.

 

"pure democracy' as Leejah points out, is a strawman. NO ONE IS SUGGESTING IT.

Watch her video.

 

Leejah Miller does an admirable job of dismantling Levin, but most on the right get their talking points from the Heritage Foundation, who hired a PHD to put forth a scholarly veneer on there poo pooing democracy. She shreds it, totally.

 

There is only one way to have a direct democracy, and that would be to get rid of congress.

No one is suggesting it.

Getting rid of the EC does not get rid of representative democracy. THe House of Representatives and the Senate is representative democracy.

 

That's very amusing, WB.

Mark Levin is a dude on the internet. LOL!

Leejah Miller quit her job at a prestigious law firm to do videos on law and life.

She is every bit as qualified to speak on the subject as Mark Levin.

 

Off topic

I did, in the OP, clearly you didn't read it.

Miller, the attorney in the video, in great depth, dismantles your argument.

That's all I can say. I can't do it like she can, but it takes someone of her intellect to do it.

We have literally hundreds of elections in the United states.

Representative democracy. Why is it called that? Because legislation is voted on by representatives.

Direct voting is held on:

congresspersons
Senators.
Governors
Mayors
Municipal and state office holders of various types.
State Ballot initiatives (yes, 'direct democracy' in many states).

The ONLY elections that are not direct of for legislation and the president.

Two, out of hundreds of elections in America.

Where there is a substantial amount of voting by citizens, you have a democracy. Call it anything you want, but descriptively speaking, it's a democracy. A democracy is that it is, like it or not. And it's a republic.

Watch the video.

 

Gimme a link - I'm not going hunting to prove your point.

 

Rehashing this theme every so often must amuse others as much as it does me. The driving effort seems to be to obscure or destroy ever more political terms. It is like saying a pickup is not a vehicle because it is a truck. It has wheels and carries people and other things and is, thus, a vehicle. Republics are a form of democracy. It would be possible to have a democratic monarchy or theocracy, as well.
Have a nice day, hair splitters.

 

That's exactly what you all want. That's what's happening in blue states. They're putting the rights of the pyon the ballot. Take Oregons recent anti-gun law, for instance.

 

Right on top of it, why is it so important to you to declare the United States a democracy? What is it about democracy that you are so obsessed with, this is by far not your first time starting such a discussion and making such a claim.

Give me the gist how does he prove we were founded as a democracy?

That's all I can say. I can't do it like she can, but it takes someone of her intellect to do it.

We have literally hundreds of elections in the United states.

Representative democracy. Why is it called that? Because legislation is voted on by representatives.

ONLY in your DISTRICT and they ONLY serve your DISTRICT representing your STATE and the Senate especially had nothing to do with democracy as designed and it's original intent and still does not as democracy is one person one vote on everything..AND..they are not elected nationally.

ROFLMAO you believe Governors and Mayors are FEDERAL officials of the United States?

Go learn the difference between the Federal Government and the States.

FEDERAL.

We are talking the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and it's government which is guarantied to be in the document which designs it NOT to be a democracy but a REPUBLIC and FEDERAL REPUBLIC. NO WHERE does it or the founding document of the country say anything about democracy and the volumes backing up the Constitution explain the disdain the founding fathers had for it.

The Hill: The United States is not a democracy—and it wasn’t meant to be one

......The Framers knew that in its pure form democracy could be dangerous. The writings of the founding era are replete with warnings of this fact:

• “Real liberty is not found in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments,” Alexander Hamilton wrote. “If we incline too much to democracy we shall soon shoot into a monarchy, or some other form of a dictatorship.”

• Thomas Jefferson lamented that “a democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49.”

• James Madison argued that democracies “have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”

• John Adams concluded that democracy “never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”

Despite what many of today’s activists would have us believe, the anti-democratic institutions of the American Republic are just as vital now as they were over 200 years ago...
https://pacificlegal.org/the-united...IZxRpfBsSid8ovJ6UxIidZhS92FVrdBRoC0Q4QAvD_BwE

 

Then you should have no problem refuting my post here rather than talking about people you assert can do it. I cited the founding fathers above. Refute them.

 

I think it directly addresses it and ask you to elaborate on your claim. Levin is no more "shrill" than a host of other on air commentators do you have anything to say about the substance.

And when all else fails.....................

 

He demands The United States is a democracy, then says the will of the people is irrelevant when it comes to to Trump...lol

 

Good post.

It's really quite simple. Democracy means that we are not a dictatorship. Republic means that we are not a monarchy.

Our framers CREATED modern Democracy. But their concern at the time was to emphasize that we were not going to be a monarchy, like the British were.

But every democracy that followed ours was modeled on variations of OUR system. Thus becoming what we NOW know as "democracy"

They didn't expect to have the "perfect" system. But there had to be SOME way to make decisions. It was either a ruler making them on their own, or the elected representatives. Those were the two options.

Democracy refers to the way decisions are taken. Republic refers to who the head of state is. They are two completely different things. The ONLY group in the world where this is not understood is in part of the right wing in America. Everybody else is clear on this terminology.