Revisited: America is a representative democracy, a federal democratic constitutional republic.

Because they never considered a "national popular void". As you've already pointed out a majority wins at every level. BUT, by design it doesn't HAVE TO BE a majority of ALL voters.

Again, majority applies strictly to each level in each state.

Which is the point I've been arguing for a a couple of days.

. Who? I haven't seen any one arguing that.

Nonsense. Who's arguing that?

 

Thats not limited democracy, thats exactly what pure democracy is, and why many people want it to be limited, to prevent laws that institutionalize slavery and genocide.

 

Except that limited democracy is only limited if people agree with it.

 

Well thats not true. If certain polls can be believed, certain gun restrictions are popular enough to pass into law with a popular vote, but they get struck down by the courts for being unconstitutional. THAT is a limited democracy. The same would happen to any laws passed that institutionalized slavery or genocide.

 

It's always a majority of voters, whoever is voting, when the vote is held for

1. electors for the Prez/VP ticket.
2. legislation, floor motions/resolutions/rules, etc
3. Ballot initiatives (direct vote law)
4. State and municipal elections
5. Representatives
6. Senators

There are NO formally tabulated elections where minorities win

The reason? Because it would be anti-democratic.

I've seen you, and a number of you on the right, argue against 'tyranny of the majority'.

It's as if you are saying you want minority rule (that's what it sounds like to me) but no one was ever arguing for minority rule.

All the framers ever wanted to to was temper the majority vote via bicameral legislature, 2 senators per state, house of representatives, etc.

What the founders were arguing against as an 'athens style democracy'.

You argue it AS IF when the word 'democracy' is ever mentioned, YOU ASSUME that a 'direct democracy' is what we are arguing for.

NO, it isn't.

By 'temper' I mean filter out the tendency of democracies to get crazy. The founders tempered it out via representatives, 2 senators per state, bicameral legislature, EC, etc.

The term 'democracy' is NOT limited to just 'direct voting'. No way in hell is the term that narrow.

Every western developed nations is some kind of representative democracy.

We call them either 'western democracies' or 'liberal democracies', (liberal in the classic sense).

So, when the term 'democracy' is used NO ONE is arguing for the Athens style democracy.

No one.

My point here is, Repubs have a serious confusion on what the term means.

For the last 2 hundred years, in the halls of academia, in every congress and political hall in every state, in speeches, in essays, it is talked about the value of 'democracy'. NO ONE is arguing for Athens, but Republicans keep saying that no, America is not a democracy,. AS IF we are arguing FOR what Madison argued against.

NO ONE IS MAKING THAT ARGUMENT.

When I say 'America is a democracy' Democracy is an American core value, we are using the term in it's broadest meaning.

And it most certainly does have a broader meaning and proving it will be easy. It's in speeches,. on government websites, in documents, going back years.

A democracy,. as western styled democracy, is a high minded term, a broad term, it simply is not confined to the narrow meaning of 'voting direct" that's not it's been used for a long time, It is not a legal term, a descriptive term, it is more high minded, aspirational, even poetic. "Republic" is used in documents because it is more nominal in it's connotation. But using it doesn't mean 'not a democracy'. No way, jose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

In 1971, Robert Dahl summarized the fundamental rights and freedoms shared by all liberal democracies as eight rights:[33]

1. Freedom to form and join organizations.
2. Freedom of expression.
3. Right to vote.
4. Right to run for public office.
5. Right of political leaders to compete for support and votes.
6. Freedom of alternative sources of information
7. Free and fair elections.
8. Right to control government policy through votes and other expressions of preference.

At its core, democracy is a system of government where the power to govern is vested in the hands of the people. It is characterized by principles of political equality, popular sovereignty, and the rule of law. Here are some key aspects that define a democracy:

1. Popular Sovereignty: In a democracy, the authority of the government is derived from the consent of the governed. This means that the ultimate power rests with the people.
   
   
2. Political Equality: All citizens have equal access to power and the decision-making process. This often manifests through equal voting rights in free and fair elections.
   
   
3. Majority Rule and Minority Rights: While the decisions are generally based on the majority's preference, a true democracy also safeguards the rights and freedoms of minorities and dissenting individuals or groups.
   
   
4. Rule of Law: Democracies operate under a framework of laws that apply equally to all individuals, protecting their rights and outlining their responsibilities.
   
   
5. Participation: Citizens in a democracy have the right to participate in the political process, both directly and indirectly (through elected representatives).
   
   
6. Transparency and Accountability: Democratic governments are transparent in their workings and are accountable to the people.
   
   
7. Pluralism: Democracies encourage a variety of viewpoints and the peaceful coexistence of different interests, beliefs, and lifestyles.
   
   
8. Civil Liberties: These include freedoms of speech, assembly, religion, and the press, which are essential for political debate and the functioning of a democratic society.

Does this also sound like a Republic?

Yes, but a Republic of a certain type. Republic is even a BROADER term.

Don't believe me? Look for yourself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_republics

So, we are a hybrid, a federal constitutional democratic republic, AKA 'representative democracy', or constitutional Republic.

These are NOT mutually exclusive terms, they mean, essentially, the same thing and are often used interchangeably.

A democratic country, therefore, is one where these principles are upheld. It is a country where the government is elected by the people, where laws are made and enforced in a fair and open manner, and where the rights and freedoms of individuals are respected and protected.

A republic is a nation of appointed or elected leaders, so a democracy is a certain type of Republic.

Now, we are NOT talking about Madison's parochial use of the term. 'Athens democracy", The term has broadened considerably, and even his contemporizes disagreed with his use ot the term.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/democracy/Democracy-or-republic
Even among his contemporaries, Madison’s refusal to apply the term democracy to representative governments, even those based on broad electorates, was aberrant.

And you are going to tell me Encyclopedia Britannica is wrong, written and researched by scholars going back to the 19th century?

I don't think so.

"Democracy" is the shole shebang as it has been used in speeches and academia and among politicians for a long long time. .

So, why are some republicans like Mark levin saying 'America is not a democracy"?

Read this and you will know:

https://onlysky.media/mjohnson/were-a-republic-not-a-democracy-the-origin-of-a-weird-talking-point/

The argument that the United States is not a democracy originated in the heads of conservative thinkers with an incentive to preserve the power of the two fast-shrinking majorities that form the core of the Republican base

Majority rule, once the comfortable mainstay of a white and Christian majority, has in recent years become a looming threat as both white and Christian (not to mention white Christian) shrink inexorably toward minority status.

Both Lee and Dobski are arguing against majoritarianism and for a form of minority rule. Such a shift requires a long-game devaluation of fairness, day by day, talking point by talking point. It seems ludicrous until we recall that Republicans have only won the popular vote for President once in nearly three decades. Republicans are a political minority. To wield power at the federal level, they have increasingly relied on anti-majoritarian strategies.

Bingo

 

See what I mean about long posts. This horse is dead, Patricio. Let it rest in peach. BYT just because you provide a link doesn't mean there's anything worth look at. Your partisan slant distorts ever idea or post you present.

Oh and you can get rid of that idea that ANYONE, anyone at all his claimed ANY election was won by a minority of the vote. Get over it.

 

That's a very weak argument.

No, it isn't dead, and so many on the right keep asserting that America is not a democracy, which is absurd. And, I've provided a solid argument against, which requires approaching the subject from a number of angles since you guys on the right keep ignoring the points I'm raising, including others who have debunked your argument, as long as you keep doing this, you are keeping debate very much alive.

That is what YOU need to 'get over'.

Yes, and so you are making that determination without reading it, wonderful.

Truth has no 'slant'.

No refutation offered.

Your rebuttal, therefore, fails.

Well, get over this:

When you, and others like you, who have tossed around verbiage like 'tyranny of the majority' which gives the distinct impression you are against majority rule since the very sentence casts majority rule in a negative light, and thus it begs for qualification, and since none were ever offered, none that I can tell in any clear way, it wasn't unreasonable for me to draw a negative inference.

But, of course, that wouldn't occur to you.

 

Correct, and you're not spewing truth. You're spewing your slanted
versions and opinions as if they were Holy Writ

"Tyranny of the majority" means exactly that. It's a warning that traces back to the founding of the country. "People like me" believe in the wisdom and foresight of our Founding fathers. "People like me" believe in majority rule with some guard rails added; A majority without restraint IS a tyrannical mob.

Your political slant, as usual, is getting in the way of your logic. And, as a leftie, that means personal attacks and insults.[[/quote]

 

[/QUOTE]

If I'm slanted, then so you are you and everyone else.

In short, it's not an argument.

It's meaningless.

now, got a meaningful argument?

 

If I'm slanted, then so you are you and everyone else.[/quote] Seriously? a "I know you are, but what am I?" responds. What is this? 7th grade?

Not your call.

ditto

You don't get to make the judgements.[/quote]

 

If I'm slanted, then so you are you and everyone else.

In short, it's not an argument.

It's meaningless.

now, got a meaningful argument?[/QUOTE]
Nice try. No cigar.