ALERT: The Anonymous Group - Anarchist Criminals

Iran has never been capitalist. Ever. There has never been any form of Private Property Rights or Rule of Law. Iran has $10,000 GDP per capita, which doesn't even qualify it for an industrialized country let alone capitalist.

Rety? Y/N?

 

It's not a mixed economy. There are no market forces. Everything is centrally planned. There is no industry. The country doesn't even have a trading index. In what way are they trying to encourage foreign investment? A country needs a trading index in order to encourage such investment.

It doesn't matter in what type of Socialist Utopia you would have. North Korea is Socialist and no one denies it. The Economist Intelligence Unit and every other Freedom Index pretty much gives North Korea the lowest score labeling North Korea a "Socialist Republic."

According to you. Why don't you ask Kim Jong-il why he doesn't want to release the crime rate statistics in his own country.

Yes it is.

Health care? That is easy. Do you want primary sources or do you want secondary?

Try and research their poverty rate. You won't find it. Why is that? Well I'll give you a common piece of knowledge: Communist Lie.

Russia had crime because he had price controls. This lead to plenty of Black Markets in the Soviet Union. As all Socialist are bad at economics.

Research the Invisible Hand which is in his book 'The Wealth of Nations.' He described the nature of a Self Regulating Market which he talked about individuals who pursue their own interest unintentionally promoted the public welfare without actually wanting to at all. In order for people to make an income, someone has to produce something that another person wanted to buy. This pretty much describes the market economy we have today, but it's so congested with Government influence hindering innovation and creating artificial demand.

Does Capitalism exist today? Not in the way that Adam Smith wanted, but at least I acknowledge that it exist although in some cases you'll have to look hard to find it.

It's not meaningless because at least I know there is Capitalism being practice. As long as a country has Private Property Rights and Rule of Law it's Capitalist. The type of Capitalism a country wants it's up to them. They can either have simple Capitalism or they can have Lassiez Faire which is what Adam Smith wanted. Lassiez Faire is pure Capitalism and it has never existed anywhere in the world. Ever. So I'm not the one being intellectually dishonest with myself like you are.

Yes. Businesses do wage war on themselves. It's called "Corporatism." Capitalism allows businesses to work vigorously against each other for lower prices. This benefits consumers. It doesn't benefit businesses because they have to work too hard and in an essence some business owners hate capitalism. They are constantly using Government influence to erect trade barriers or to enact legislation which favors their business while keeping other businesses at bay.

So yes, businesses do wage war on themselves and which ever has the most advantages via Government usually wins.

Same can be said about Socialism and Feudalism. That's why you had the Black Markets in Soviet Union.

The state was created to protect the individual. Ever read the Declaration of Independence? Property Rights gives you the right to do as you wish with your own property so long as you do not violate the property rights of others.

Capitalism didn't exist until the 1800s.

Blah, blah, blah. Irrelevant. More pontificating nonsense that would take more time to debunk that it would for you to regurgitate and I can't type more than 10,000 characters.

And that will never happen. Never. The moment Marxist realize this is the moment they'll most likely dump this farce called Marxism.

I'll give you a little piece of advice: People always want more. Always. Give people whatever they need to satisfy their desires completely, and you'll create shortages. Give people an equal amount and you'll create problems. Either someone who is unsatisfied will go out to work for their own goods or they will go out and take it. Either way, when this happens the system as a whole will fail.

And there is a reason why we don't give away things for "free." There is also a reason why no one else does anything for "free." Where is the net benefit for someone who has to produce all these things things for "free?" What will incentivize them to keep doing what they are doing for no money? Nothing.

Whether you live in an economy with a commodity, fiat, or gift economy, people all have needs and there are always trade-offs. It is not money but the volume of goods and service which determine whether a country is poverty stricken or prosperous.

And that's their opinion. It doesn't change the fact that Crime has been around longer than Capitalism and Socialism and neither is the cause of individual crime.

And yet they are so bad at understanding the individual.

Yes it was.

You would even be able to learn about the basics of Supply and Demand from textbook written by John Maynard Keynes himself. The fact that it's a foreign concept to you just shows your abject economic illiteracy.

There are shortages where prices are not allowed to work. Africa, Soviet Union, Middle East. I'll about about supply and demand. If you let prices work, resources can be allocated to where demand is highest the most. It's a very simple concept to learn. Even Marx was able to pick it up easily.

Name one resources which has never disappeared off the face of this Earth. Ever. I'll give you a month to come up with a real answer.

Prices rise when goods are scarce and they fall when goods and abundant. People buy less not because they can't afford it but because they can't buy as much as they good before. It's no secret by people buy more at low prices and less at high prices.

Law of Supply and Demand.

Really, water is becoming scarce? There is a reason why even with all this inflation we have been experiencing recently we have not seen water rise north of $1 dollar.

The value of a good is determined by the margin. It's determined by what you can do with one more unit of the good. Not by the nature of the good itself. A bottle of water isn't really worth a whole lot because we have a lot of water and one more isn't really going to add much to your satisfaction.

America sends Billions of dollars in foreign aid. A third of it goes to African countries. Why is Africa still poor? Well Africa has lots of corruption. Africa has lots of dictators. The money and the resources gets into the hands of the Government offices and never sees the African people.

If you want Africa to lift themselves out of poverty give them Private Property Rights and establish a rule of law.

 

How is it not theft?

 

The standart of living of millions is more important than profit for the top 1%

 

How does that change the physical nature of the act itself?

 

It doesnt but I dont care since corporations steal from the people.

 

If the reason why you oppose corporations is because they steal then how can you not be against yourself since YOU are advocating theft?

 

There is a saying in my country that goest: a thief you steal from a thief has 100 years of forgiveness.

 

Not really...more like insults and excuses.

 

To people like you who are just not worth it.

 

North Korea is a dictatorship. No more than that. That is not socialist neither communist.

The first point to be that, is that in Marx ideas the socialism would have to be much more democratic than ever has arrived in democracy in a capitalist country.

LOL, the invisible hand. HAHA. The invisible hand is pure faith. It doesn't consider how is the human.

No, free market we saw the results of that during the XIX century and are very funny. Yeah.

Marx critizied very well these ideas. Sorry, but that is outdated and demonstered wrong. It would lead to a society of a new slavery. The invisible hand doesn't exist like God.

And later the anarchists are the idealists, LOL

And never will exist. Because that is impossible to work

And at first point, if you read that book, and you support his free market theory, I suppose that you defend free market in all ways, also that the labour forces can move everywhere without impediment.

LOL. Capitalism is a model where the private market works. Point. And all countries in the world are capitalist except some that are some aberrations.

LOL. No comments.

But if the Feudalist structures are alive in capitalism, are not abolished. Master-slave is clear this structure in capitalism.

URSS was not socialist neither communist. Was state-capitalist. Bad example

The state was created to protect the interests of the aristocracy. Today the interests of the corporations.

And we see the results of capitalism

False. People not always want more.

For example the original American Dream was simple:
- Establish a family
- Own a farm
- And produce your own food
That was the American dream. That is the American Dream, it is very simple and with that people had enough.

So using the American Dream as example your theory is wrong. Most of people have enough with living and having some idle time, and enjoying his life. Point.

That of needing more, is something learned by the capitalism, that creates innecessary necessities.

I give away things for free. I've received a lot of help for free from people that I don't know at all.

People do things just for the sake of the good. Main motivation of the people is do good. And there are studies that show that people with motivators different to money are more productive than the ones that are offered to them receive more money.

Money is a necessity, not a motivator.

Ok, good.

Crime is related to education, and social conditions. If there is more poverty more crime will be. Point.

And many times the cause is in the system, mainly in capitalism.

In theory true, in practice there are other factors that can artificially raise up or down the prices, independing to the suppy and demand. For example, the speculation.

Because America is not interested in change that. If was interested would do different things. But that money go to the dictators and company.

 

Well, good for you. Mazal Tov. You have that option and the United Kingdom is only 95,000 square miles. Compare that to China where the country is 3.7 Million Square Miles.

No comparison.

China is already congested and all they use is bikes. There are some automobiles but not enough to greatly make an impact on the population as a whole.

And if you believe the whole Global Warming mantra, China is one of the most polluted places in the world. They have tons of factors polluting the air. You really think automobiles are going to make a difference?

China already drills for their own oil. If anything oil will increase, but it won't peak.

Public transportation is nice where it's available and convenient where people need it. Otherwise it's not all that useful. Most people in China would rather go where the want to go and not where the Trains drop them off.

This is what happens when you use the term sustainable. The way you are using it is meaningless. 50 percent of what? Oil? We are no where near our peak.

As for increasing prices, prices have been decreasing in terms of real prices when you compare labor hours at the average industrial wage. But I don't want to confuse you with details. I'll just stick to commodity indexes.

There are no commodities anywhere near their 52 week highs. Crude Oil has had a 21 percent decline from it's peak in May. Natural Gas has had a 13 percent decline. Corn has decreased a dollar since last month but have increased 14 percent since a year ago.

Wheat, Soybeans, Cocoa, Cotton, Sugar are all near 52 week lows. The only other commodities which have been neither the same levels or increasing are cattle and hogs. Natural meats will be pricier than things you grow out of the ground.

Of course they do. People get rich by fulfilling the demands of others. If the environmentalist wackos demand energy efficient cars the market will provide them. That's how we come up with hybrids. That's why newspapers use recycled paper now.

While Governments are mis-allocating resources and messing around with that corn ethanol boondoggle with their corporate corn buddies, entrepreneurs and free market places are studying switchgrass as a much more efficient source for ethanol. It only needs to be planted once, he has a faster growth rate and it'll deliver 13 times more fuel it needs to create it. And on the plus side, it won't increase the the price of corn.

While Governments are subsiding failures like Solyndra, Free Market players are working on real solutions. Toyota and other car manufactures now have hybrid cars made out of carbon fiber. They weigh one-third of what normal compact cars weigh and get close to 100 miles per gallon. It's being done by Google of all people.

It's called "Trade." And America gets copper from all over. China, Peru, Kazakhstan. Besides, America hardly uses copper to wire to carry their information. They don't even use it for their money anymore. Now they use fiber-optic cables to transfer data. They only use copper for conducting electricity.

People recycle water. Besides water replaces itself. Ever heard of the Water Cycle?

There is a mass abundance of soil but just saying soil is meaningless. Nothing is a resource until you know how to use it.

 

Doesn't have to be a democracy in order to be socialist. And no economist today (especially the Economist Unit) will dispute that North Korea is socialist.

It's a metaphor.

What?

The invisible hand is a metaphor. It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand it.

Well at least Capitalism is well thought out from many philosophers from the Age of Enlightenment. What does anarchist have? The unicorn brigade basically.

I defend ways which makes the Free Market "Free." Lassiez Faire is impossible to work because of increasing Government intervention. That is the idealist form of Capitalism but at least we know that Capitalism can work. We know that Anarchism can never work because it is ill-thought out and half-baked.

No all countries in the world are not capitalist.

Thank goodness.

Why are you so bad at history? Slavery was abolished 150 years ago. There are no slaves in Capitalism as slaves do not earn wages nor ar they entitled to the fruits of their own labor.

No economist disputes that the Soviet Union was socialist. Except marxist and anarchist but what do they actually know about economics.

Dumbest thing ever said.

Yes it gives you the ability to trash talk capitalism on the computer which was created by people in free capitalist societies. By the internet which was creating because people in free capitalist societies were able to innovation and explain their invention.

There have been many good results

This is getting ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream

I'm going to make you do research before you respond to anything that I say. There are no guidelines to the American Dream. The American Dream are not items nor are they possessions. The American Dream is the "promise of the possibility of prosperity and success." Success is a relative term and what is success to some people is not successful to others.

In essence, the American Dream does mean that people always want more. You keep working until you achieve your success and prosperity. If you don't want to be successful or prosperous then don't do a thing.

People want to be successful and they want to be prosperous. In essence it is a fact that people always want more.

And studies show that people don't do anything unless there are incentives. It's called "economics" and "prices."

People choose "goals" and people think of the best ways to achieve them. People have a lot of alternatives. This means that every action that they take as a "cost." We have to give up something in order to do something else. Since every action has a cost people are going to respond to "incentives." And let me tell you that Incentives Matter. Incentives matter because most people will usually do more of what benefit themselves than the benefit of others. Always. This is apparent no matter who you are or what you do.

Then why are all the biggest crimes done in places with no Rule of Law or Private Property Rights, IE Capitalism?

Speculation is part of the law of supply and demand. It's just further proof how something so simply can be widely misunderstood. Economics should be a grade school requirement.

We invade Libya. What more do you want?

 

The top photo was taken in the 70s. Shortly after that, America started funding reactionaries with billions of dollars. After that, and a few million dead, Afghanistan had a Taliban government. I really cant be bothered arguing this because it's so basic. America and the Pakistani ISI created the Taliban. The Ottoman empire was not around in the 1970s.

Hilary Clinton admitting the US created the Taliban on video...

http://remixxworld.blogspot.com/2011/07/hillary-clinton-admits-us-government.html

 

Incorrect. Socialism had nothing to do with the Ukraine famine, and it is not certain that it was in any way deliberately allowed to happen, though that is possible. Socialism has nothing to do with factories making rubbish to meet quotas. That is NOT what happened under socialism, socialism never happened. It is not the 'closest thing we have'. The closes thing was Russia in the first few months of years after the revolution, and even that was nothing like socialism. Lenin said they hadnt even built the foundations of a socialist economy, and that it would be their children or grandchildren who did it, but that it would need advanced countries to join in to succeed. That did not happen, socialism did not happen, and in the late 1920s to 1930s Stalin carried out a bloody counter-revolution against socialists and the ideas of socialism. Stalinism was anti-socialist. Anti-socialism is not close to socialism.

They had a planned economy, thats it. One of the ingredients, like an egg is an ingredient of a cake. An egg is not usually described as the closest thing to a cake.

With bureaucratic central control a planned economy can, in a fairly brutal way, make big steps forward, and Russia' economy grew faster than Americas. But this has a limited lifespan and so it inevitably crumbled and went over to capitalism.

Socialism needs internationalism and amounts of democracy you cannot even imagine.

Lenin:

"One of the most important tasks today, if not the most important, is to develop this independent initiative of the workers, and of all the working and exploited people generally, develop it as widely as possible in creative organisational work. At all costs we must break the old, absurd, savage, despicable and disgusting prejudice that only the so-called "upper classes", only the rich, and those who have gone through the school of the rich, are capable of administering the state and directing the organisational development of socialist society."

"The workers and peasants are still "timid", they have not yet become accustomed to the idea that they are now the ruling class.."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/dec/25.htm

"Proletarian democracy is a million times more democratic than any bourgeois democracy; Soviet power is a million times more democratic than the most democratic bourgeois republic." Lenin, 1918, Bourgeois And Proletarian Democracy

 

How does that answer my questions re the photos from Afghanistan?

Of course Iran was capitalist. It had a secular democratic government in 1953. America overthrew that and installed a dictatorship. Eventuallt the people overthrew the dictatorship and the workers should have taken power but their leaders werent up to scratch so the mullahs stepped into the vacuum.

 

Really? Were there taxes?

 

It doesn't. The pictures themselves don't tell you anything. Especially the oldest one. I don't bother with flawed logic hidden behind imagery.

It was never Capitalist. They've never had any form of a Capitalist system. Ever. They've never had any form of Private Property Rights or a Market Economy.

If it were Capitalist, there would have been no reason to take part in the coup and there would have been no reason to overthrow the Parliament It's right here for you to see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état#U.S._role

Democracy in name only. It was a dynasty. There was a coup d'etat. America supported the coup. It was a dissolution referendum. The Parliament was voted out.

So that is a nice revisionist history.

 

There's capitalism and there's democracy. Right now the capitalists are trying to undermine democracy in the US with voting restrictions. This is nothing short of war declared on our most basic democratic underpinning. They got Citizen's United, in spite of the fact that it allows a foreign Prince to influence internal US affairs. A prince who has abetted our enemy in time of war no less [Prince Talal of Saudi Arabia..major stockholder in Newscorp, Pepsi, Disney, Citibank etc. etc..]. Now they want our votes taken away too. Before long Stalinism will look like a walk in the park.

 

The yacht cost $1.2 billion...it did not spring from the ether, someone built it, hire hundreds of folk to do so, bought vast amounts of supplies for that construction, and added money to hundreds of businesses. That $1.2 billion went straight to the coffers of businesses, salaries for employees and taxes for government. It continues to pay a crew, is taxed, buys goods to operate and keeps scores of not hundreds of folk employed directly or indirectly. As long as it exists its a money pump for the folk in the yacht industry. If it did not, hundreds if not thousands of folk would not be employed.

How is the result of a successful industry worse than government funneling billions into failed companies like Solyndra?

 

I am sorry, but the folk with the ink of revisionist history still wet on their fingers do not get to define revisionist history.

 

Sure they do. You don't have a monopoly on the truth. It speaks for itself. Wallstreet criminals roam free. War criminals roam free. Unions are being busted. Foreigners invited to affect internal US policy [citizen's united]. Votes are being suppressed. Oil and nuclear promoted while people die from it right and left...all the outfall. Green energy suppressed. People turned out to die from lack of healthcare...

And all of it. Every single shred of it is plainly and apparently from the GOP. The party of the elite godless industrialists.

The stark reality of those facts are pretty much of a yawn. And all the spin that goes with it trying to whitewish the pile of feces that these people are..

 

Please stop typing utter nonsense. North Korea is nothing like a socialist country and if someone like me went there I would be imprisoned. Someone with very similar views to me was recently refused entry to China which is much more open than NK.

Anyway, re NK having markets...have you heard of google?

You have not supported your claim. You said that Cuba claims to have the best healthcare in the world. Support that. You said they claim to have the lowest poverty in the world, support that.

Instead you provide some photos of horrible conditions in a Cuban hospital. I dont have time to research them. Cuba is a poor country and in the 1990s it had a lot of problems when the USSR closed down, people were hungry and there was no oil so no ambulances, no. They used donkeys to plough fields etc.

Russia was not socialist

here is a bit on his views

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Smith.html

capitalism is never 'pure' because it never could be and the capitalists dont want it to be. That has no relevance to a political counter-revolution carried out by Stalin. Stalin was a vicious anti-socialist who wanted all countries except Russia to be capitalist. You need to understand this or you will have no idea about any of 20th century history.

How exactly does that relate to Stalin killing tens of thousands of socialists?

 

The Economist Intelligence Unit (made by the left leaning magazine "The Economist") forms analysis from the top economist from Singapore, China, America, Australia and Germany.

They all pretty much made the consensus that North Korea is anything but a Market Economy. It's still a "Socialist Republic"

That's because Marxist are idiots. China actually has a good thing going. Why would they want some Marxist going there and (*)(*)(*)(*)ing it up for everyone.

I, on the other hand, was just in China a few weeks ago.

Yes, I have heard of Google and all I read are stories about North Korea "trying."

The more important question is -- albeit it's a stupid question because I already know the answer -- do you know what a market index is? It allows traders to track the market value of businesses either in their own country or in another. North Korea doesn't have one. Not even for the businesses which are already there. So there is no possible way it is actually attempting to have a Market Economy.

I have supported my claim. I have already supported that they do not have the best Health Care system nor do they not have the lowest Poverty Rate.

As for whether or not they reported that they have the best Poverty Rate and Health Care:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_cuba#Poverty

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA"]Stossel Questions Cuba's Health Care[/ame]

What part of it wasn't socialist? The Price Controls? The Government Central Planning? The Nationalization?

Nope. The fact that they killed people who disagreed with them. That means that they can never be considered Socialist.

Is this why Stalin picked up all these Satellite Nations, which ultimately became Socialist?

Corporatism is how businesses wage war on other business. Ever heard of a currency war?

 

I dont care if you want to describe nationalisation as theft, the majority would not see it that way at all.