Why is abortion such a big deal in the Christian world?

Actually I'd say you are not an enigma at all, you are pretty much pro-choice.

 

Pro-choice, anti-abortion. A very common and very moral position, one I share.

 

The biggest business people have concerns the sexual more ofthe community that they live in.

Strong comminities and strong nations depend upon the formation and respect of Family.

The children raised by Single Mothers are responsible for 70% of all Social Problems, of every sort.
When a society legalizes, discusses, accepts, and warrants abortion as common methods of contraception while promoting sexual promiacuity and public nakedness as tolerable the two parent families dexcline and the broken families grow larger in kind and number.

 

"You American can abort all the potential criminal children that would otherwise be born into families of Single Mothers, but the sexual attitude the teens are raised with creates 1.5 million illegitimate babies every year that add to Welfare costs and the viloent crime rates."

The pro-choice, anti-abortion mentality seems to favor mandatory abortion of even more unborn children, to include the illegitmately born.


It seems wiser to be pro-abortion, anti-sexual promiscuity.
That would elimiate the illegitimate babies while reducing their numbers every year.

 

Er... No? That's pulled straight out of your ass.

We tried that, actually. You know what happened? It didn't (*)(*)(*)(*)ing work.

 

"failure to render assistance in an emergency" is not a moral position. A child who is in danger to become aborted is absolutelly helpless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_tB6cTKVTM

 

Who says such a nonsense?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dq9kI74kRk

 

Everyone "costs". A rich man costs more than a poor man. If you like we can press coal to diamonds - that costs. We are able to produce cars - that costs. We are able to give someone credit - that costs ... So what? ... And what for heavens sake is an "illegitimate baby"? ... Do you live in fear to die of hunger? What exactly is your problem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn7iFxvfn3A

 

It's also essentially mindless, not definitively a person, and infringing on the autonomy of another person.

 

I feel a deep emotional revulsion at the whole concept of abortion.
To me, when two people have sex, they should realize and accept that they are signing a sacred contract, to love and protect the life they may create.

Should. That is in an ideal world.

I dont actually know if i had an abortion or not. I was given 'morning after" after an assault.

What a nightmare if a person had to carry a pregnancy to term, under such circumstances.

I understand very well that regrettable as it may be, imperfect world as we demonstrably have, abortion is for now a lesser evil to outlawing it, or even putting more restrictions on it.

I hope some day the human race will get beyond such questions.

And every baby will grow up with two loving parents.

 

So you are thinking "mindless and personless human beings who are infringing the autonomy of their mother because they like to live have no right to live"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCmUhYSr-e4

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_hL7tI7o1Y

 

The abortion industry kills millions of small unborn babies. Reasonable people, both religious and secular, oppose this gross human rights violation.

Mahatma Gandhi’s Views On Abortion

Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League

The Libertarian Case Against Abortion

Only a moron would think that subservience to the abortion industry makes you pro-woman.

1) Planned Parenthood, which receives 100s of millions of taxpayer dollars, lies to women. If you really care about choice you don't lie to the one making the decision.

Planned Parenthood’s use of unscientific and fabricated medical information

2) Just a few of the women chewed up by the abortion industry:

New 911 tape reveals botched abortion at Virginia Planned Parenthood

Authorities: Abortion doctors charged with murder

16-Year-Old Girl Suffered Botched Abortion at Planned Parenthood

DA: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors

The abortion industry, like many industries, has captured the regulatory apparatus. Legalization means mistreatment of women and a huge expansion of the industry.

For example: Lax state oversight results in widespread violations at Michigan abortion providers, report says

3) The abortion industry represents the greatest assault on women in human history. Tens of millions of unborn baby girls have been killed for the "crime" of being a girl!

Sex-Selection Abortion: A War on Baby Girls

4) Not a few abortions are forced on women.

Pregnant Woman Threatened & Assaulted for Refusing Abortion

Why it's The UnChoice
Most abortions are unwanted or coerced, many forced. Women are dying, too. Human rights abuse misrepresented as "choice."

And many rich people & bigots are eager to pressure working women & women of color into killing off their future.

5) The abortion industry just wants more abortions. They have no problem endangering women's health.

Planned Parenthood pushes California bill to let non-physicians conduct abortions

6) Women report being victimized by the abortion industry.

quote: It’s no wonder that 81 percent of women surveyed in a 1992 study reported in the Journal of Social Issues said they felt victimized by the abortion process, and that they were either coerced into the abortion or that information about alternatives or the actual procedure had been withheld.

LINK

Women Victimized by Abortion Say They Would Want Breast Cancer Info

 

The depths to which the abortion-lovers have slid: Premeditated murder of newborns

 

Certainly not at the cost of the mother who won't willingly give up that autonomy.

 

What happens if everyone is shooting everyone down who is hurting anyones "autonomy"? And why is it not "autonomy" for a woman to have sex with a man knowing about the well known consequence "pregnancy". Both - man and woman - are creating a new life. In the moment they created it both - man and woman - are responsible for the life of this human being. They are not able to take back their genetical information - their "yes" - any longer. This irreversibility of life may not be negated with the irreversibility of death. It's an illusion to think the death of the own descendants is able to solve the problems of the own life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMIGQp4YhuU

 

Interesting that all your evidence comes from pro-life places .. really unbiased opinions those, and the point is that it isn't the abortion laws that create these problems it is the people who interpret those laws incorrectly.

Just to add something about Planned Parenthood -

so you want to stop funding for something that by law cannot use that funding to cover abortion costs .. and in the process take away all the other health items it offers to those who cannot afford it.

To date after 10 years of being involved in debates on abortion there has never been one piece of evidence from the pro-life side that can establish that a zygote is an independent sentient person, and TBH most of the pro-life people I have met or debated with have no idea how they would implement a law making abortion illegal and they have no regard for the fetus once it is born .. then "it's not their problem"
Religion also plays a big part in the pro-life dogma and yet again they cannot show one single place that even mentions abortion in their fairy tale book called the bible .. the actual stance on abortion of the catholic church was not even fully ratified until 1917, prior to this only late term abortions were seen as wrong. The catholic church did not believe that a human being with a soul came in existence at conception. It has been pointed out to me that there are certain phrases in the bible that can be interpreted as abortion being wrong, yet these are just that interpretations .. I find it very strange that the bible is seen as gods word that should be followed and yet is left open to interpretations by imperfect people, either the bible is gods word and is correct in its entirety or it is not. I see this as the religious pro-life people changing the ideas to suit their opinion.

 

Your first point would be covered by the law for murder, which as the person has been born gives them the rights of a person .. a fetus is not a person in the eyes of the medical & legal profession.
when you can come up with the scientific evidence that a fetus is an independent sentient person then you will have an argument against abortion.
If you really want to reduce the number of abortions then why not support the only proven method, which is education and easier to get contraception .. but it really isn't about that for pro-lifers, its about controlling someone via the state.

 

Who told you it was Gods point of view ? and what God are you talking about ?

For those who put their faith in the God of Abraham as discussed in the OT... God commands abortion.

So the God of Abraham is obviously not your God.

 

Laws?

What for heavens sake are you speaking about now?

Are you sure you are able to think? If someone aborts a human fetus then the reason is exactly that a human baby never shall be born. The reason for abortion is it to destroy human beings. And I am not aborting anyone - so I don't need any reason for anything. If I say "From my point of view it's a human baing what aborters are killing" then the killers have to know excactly - without any serios doubt - why I am wrong and why they are right and why they are indeed not killing human beings but something else - whatever this could be. Until today never someone was able to explain this to me - although I would be interested in a real and serios answer. I hate it to be rigth and/or to have to "fight" - but I could not take a look in my own eyes in the morning in the mirror if I would not say very clear: "Abortion is wrong!" (An exception confirming this rule are very very seldom cases of self-defense).

I fear abortion is not only the death of human beings in their own mothers womb - a very ugly crime from a human and christian point of view - abortion is also the loss of a feeling for justice and solidarity and it is also the destruction of the human rights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj8gLBqifnA

 

I'm not a brainwasher - I'm educating no one. I say only what I think - and noone is more or less than I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2UZReQGNVI

 

I think this post just goes to show that what Christians are really interested in is dominating women. No one ever says men need to keep their dicks in their pants, or that experienced older guys need to stay away from impressionable young women… Instead, everyone says that women need to stop being sluts or that they need to keep a pill between their knees. The “dominate women at all cost” attitude you guys take is why you’ll never be successful, and why abortion will always be legal ;]. Keep it up homie.

 

No matter what side you're on, you might want to consider Numbers 10:11-31.

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[e] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

So, God prescribes here an abortion method for unfaithful wives. If the miscarried fetus is a person, why would God allow the fetus to be killed? The question is this: When does personhood begin?

- - - Updated - - -

Good post. You nailed it.

- - - Updated - - -

Good post. You nailed it.

 

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/we-know-they-are-killing-children-all-of-us-know

We Know They Are Killing Children—All of Us Know
by John Piper | January 22, 2013
Subscribe to... All Blog Posts . One biblical principle of justice is that the more knowledge we have that our action is wrong, the more guilty we are, and the more deserving of punishment (Luke 12:47–4. The point of this blog post is that we know what we are doing — all America knows. We are killing children. Pro-choice and Pro-life people both know this.

But before I show that, let’s clarify what the Supreme Court did forty years ago today. In Roe v. Wade the Supreme Court in effect made abortion on demand untouchable by law. The way this was done was with two steps.

One step was to say, laws may not prevent abortion, even during the full nine months, if the abortion is “to preserve the life or health of the mother.” The other step was to define “health” as “all factors — physical, emotional, psychological, familial and the woman's age — relevant to the well-being of the patient.”

For forty years this has meant that any perceived stress is a legal ground for eliminating the child. We have killed fifty million babies. And what increases our guilt as a nation is that we know what we are doing. Here’s the evidence that we know we are killing children.

1. Anecdotally, abortionists will admit they are killing children.
Many simply say it is the lesser of two evils. I took an abortionist out to lunch once, prepared to give him ten reasons why the unborn are human beings. He stopped me, and said, “I know that. We are killing children.” I was stunned. He said, “It’s simply a matter of justice for women. It would be a greater evil to deny women the equal right of reproductive freedom.” Which means women should be no more encumbered by the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy than men. That equal freedom from the burden of bearing unwanted children is the basis for abortion that President Obama refers to again and again when he talks about equal rights for women. We know we are killing children.

2. States treat the killing of the unborn as a homicide.
We know what we are doing because 38 States (including Minnesota) treat the killing of an unborn child as a form of homicide. They have what are called “fetal homicide laws.”

It is illegal to take the life of the unborn if the mother wants the baby, but it is legal to take the life of the unborn if she doesn’t. In the first case the law treats the fetus as a human with rights; in the second case the law treats the fetus as non-human with no rights.

Humanness is defined by the desire of the strong. Might makes right. We reject this right to define personhood in the case of Nazi anti-Semitism, Confederate race-based slavery, and Soviet Gulags. When we define the humanness of the unborn by the will of the powerful we know what we are doing.

3. Fetal surgery treats the unborn as children and patients.
High risk pregnancy specialist, Dr. Steve Calvin, in a letter some years ago to the Arizona Daily Star, wrote, “There is inescapable schizophrenia in aborting a perfectly normal 22 week fetus while at the same hospital, performing intra-uterine surgery on its cousin.” When the unborn are wanted, they are treated as children and patients. When they are not wanted, they are not children. We know what we are doing.

4. Being small does not disqualify personhood.
The five-foot-eight frame of a teenage son guarantees him no more right to life than the 23-inch frame of his little sister in her mother's arms. Size is morally irrelevant. One inch, 23 inches, 68 inches — does not matter. It is morally irrelevant in deciding who should be protected. We know what we are doing in killing the smallest.

5. Not having developed reasoning does not disqualify personhood.
A one-month-old infant, nursing at his mother's breast, does not have reasoning powers. But only a few dare argue that infanticide is therefore acceptable. Most know better. Outside and inside the womb the infant cannot yet reason, but is a human person. We know what we are doing.

6. Being in the womb does not disqualify human personhood.
Location or environment does not determine a right to life. Scott Klusendorf asks, “How does a simple journey of seven inches down the birth canal suddenly transform the essential nature of the fetus from non-person to person?” We know what we are doing.

7. Being dependent on mommy does not disqualify personhood.
We consider persons on respirators or dialysis to be human beings. The unborn cannot be disqualified from human personhood because they are dependent on their mother for food and oxygen. In fact, we operate on the exact opposite principle: The more dependent a little one is on us, the more responsibility we feel to protect him, not the less. We know what we are doing.

(Those last four observations, #4-7, were summed up by Scott Klusendorf under the acronym SLED: Size, Level of development, Environment, Degree of dependence — none is morally relevant for the definition of human life.)

8. The genetic make up of humans is unique.
The genetic make up of a human is different from all other creatures from the moment of conception. The human code is complete and unique from the start. Once that was not known. Now we know.

9. All the organs are present at eight weeks of gestation.
At eight weeks of gestation all the organs are present. The brain is functioning, the heart pumping, the liver making blood cells, the kidney cleaning the fluids, the finger has a print. Yet almost all abortions happen later than this date. We know what we are doing.

10. We have seen the photographs.
The marvel of ultrasound has given a stunning window into the womb that shows the unborn, for example, at 8 weeks sucking his thumb, recoiling from pricking, responding to sound. Watch this four-minute video of the developing unborn child. We know that they are children.

11. When two rights conflict, the higher value should be protected.
We know the principle of justice that when two legitimate rights conflict, the right that protects the higher value should prevail. We deny the right to drive at 100 miles per hour because the value of life is greater than the value of being on time or getting thrills. The right of the unborn not to be killed and the right of a woman not to be pregnant may be at odds. But they are not equal rights. Staying alive is more precious and more basic than not being pregnant. We know what we are doing when we kill a child.


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For Christians who believe the Bible, we could add at least ten more reasons why we know what is happening in abortion, and why it is wrong. But the aim here is threefold.

1.To make clear that we will not be able to defend ourselves with the claim of ignorance. We knew. All of us.
2.To solidify our conviction to resist this horrific evil.
3.To intensify our prayer and our preaching toward gospel-based soul-renovation in our land, because hardness of heart, not ignorance, is at the root of this carnage.

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I am more than able to think, which is more than I can say for pro-lifers who tend to base their arguments around what they think god wants.
No one I know who is pro-choice says it is not human .. what they do say is that no one has the right to take away their choice. Your opinion is entirely up to you just so long as you don't try to force that opinion onto others by making laws that cannot be enforced ie making abortion illegal.

As to you thinking education is forcing others .. then you really need to learn what education is.

It has only become a christian view recently .. up until 1917 it wasn't even the catholic churches point of view, and nowhere in the bible does it say abortion is wrong.
what about justice and rights for the woman, it is her womb . .why should she not have complete control over it, just because you think its wrong doesn't mean others do.