Should All Occupied Territories Be Given Back?

Let's just deal with one thing at a time. Your claim that at the Mandate which began in 1922 the situation in Palestine was Jews against Arabs was not true. That you could imagine that could only be that you were looking into the future and seeing European Colonial Jews against the indigenous population of Palestine.

Certainly there was Hebron in 1929 against the native Jews by outsiders. However during that massacre the Muslims and Christians hid their Jewish neighbours in their homes at risk to their own lives saving most of the Jews. This was of course after the Palestinian people knew that European Jews were intent on taking over their historical homeland.

In 1922 to suggest the situation in Palestine was Jews against Arabs is untrue. Most Jews were Arab and most did not agree with European colonisation of their country.

 

Jews are the indigenous population and they are not Arabs. The Arabs arrived in Palestine much later after the conquest in the 7th Century AD. Try reading a few serious historical works instead of believing in fairy tales.

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You can keep repeating the same things. That doesn't make them true. But you are clearly blinded by your anti-Jewish hatred. Pretty sad.

 

This is clearly the basic trolling position and all claims to a working knowledge of the realities of Palestine just went out of the window. Were you planning a ' Hamas Charter ' episode for later ?

 

Really pretty sad to see so many people blinded by irrational anti-Jewish hatred and racism. But much sadder still is the cheering for continuing a conflict that can only cost the Palestinians more. After 65 years it's time for a change. After all, imagine what would have happened if the Arab states and the Palestinians had accepted peace after 1948. would the same people now be screaming to "liberate" the "occupied territories" from Jordanian and Egyptian control?

 

Anything to stop genuine debate it would appear.

 

I suppose you believe Palestine was an empty and barren land in 1922

You give the proposition that Palestine was empty. The Palestinians

— Yitzhak Epstein, “The Hidden Question,” 1907



http://jfjfp.com/?p=46224

 

Can you read? Do you comprehend concepts like "7th Century AD" and chronology?

 

They are the indigenous population even by your wish. Genetic research confirms this.

 

Can you relate to us the state of the United Nations and modern international law , circa, say, 678 A.D ? Wasn't the predominant rule that of the club ? And isn't that the self-same methodology employed by Zionism today ?

 

You see you have this dreadful sectarian thing about Arabs. When I was in Israel in the 1970's and totally unaware of anything I noticed an Arab soldier at a checkpoint in an Israeli uniform. I asked the people I was with why an arab was in the Israeli army and was told that he was one of the Jews who had stayed.

Of course there were plenty more and they like the Jew I saw, mated with arabs though most changed to Christianity and Islam. Same people though. Guess you have never been to Israel.

 

Alexa showed you the FACTS only yesterday
Here is a census of 1922

Muslims 589,117 = 78.34%
Jews 83,790 = 11.14%
Christians71,464 = 9.5%

The Vast majority of Jews in Israel today were recent immigrants, surely you know that? So how can they be indigenous compared to the vast majority at the time?

Isaiah 42:20: Seeing many things, but you observe not; opening the ears, but he hears not.

 

So you too argue that Jews are Arabs?

As for the Jews being the indigenous population, my only contention is that Jews (unlike Arabs) have lived continuously in Palestine throughout historical times. That many Jews were expelled at some point and that their descendants only returned during the last century is true, but doesn't change that fact.

Alexa simply has no clue about what Jews and Arabs are.

 

I understand they are people who share a language. Now are you suggesting 19th C Palestinian Jews spoke Yiddish. If you have an issue about me address it with me. I am off to the dentist. Will look back later.

 

Sorry to rain on your parade, European Conservative, but Alexa is spot on. She is very knowledgeable about the Middle East.

She claims that the Palestinians ('Arabs') are descendants from the Canaanites just as the Jews are. And she is 100% correct according to Israeli archaeologists and Israeli geneticists (plus a host of others)

Instead of accusing her of being clueless, perhaps it is you who needs to seek more knowledge. There is a current thread on this very topic right here on this forum where you could start ..... IF you are serious about knowledge. You will find many professional, verifiable and accessible references.

1) The Jews are indeed Palestinians - with a very large dollop of southern Mediterranean, Turkish, Khazar and Germanic (think blue eyes and blonde hair of Gwynneth Paltrow) thrown in
2) The Palestinians are also .... Palestinians. They do have some true Arab (from the Hejaz) thrown into their DNA, also Syrian, Egyptian, Cypriot, but seemingly less foreign DNA than that of the Ashkenazim.

Here is the thread that I refer to: http://www.politicalforum.com/middl...fter-bar-kochba-revolt-19.html#post1062893172

You will find a reference in there to a professional opinion that the closest match to the Middle East component of the Jewish genes is found in the Palestinians. This is supported by the historical record (confirmed by Rabbi Simmons). It is supported by the cultural record (confirmed by Tzvi MiSinai's investigations). The early Canaanite absorption/link is confirmed by the biblical record.

The Jews and the Palestinians are indeed blood brothers.

Here, again, is that current thread: http://www.politicalforum.com/middl...fter-bar-kochba-revolt-19.html#post1062893172

 

I seem to recall that post-WW2 Germany got a pretty good deal.

 

Your recall is not very accurate. Germany lost many of its prewar territories. Millions of Germans died being expelled from those territories.

 

Millions died? Really? Who killed these millions of Germans?

 

Russians, Poles, Czechs and others. Many millions more were driven from their homes and lost everything.

 

The figures I have suggest around 500,000 deaths. Can't actually say I blame the Poles, Russians or Czechs. Revenge, as they say, is sweet.

 

The most often cited figures are 2 to 2,5 million killed. The number of people driven from there homes exceeded 10 million.

Revenge can be understandable but it remains bloody and inhuman. there is some excellent recent scholarship on the pretty atrocious inhumanities committed during this period (also by Serbs against Croats; by Poles against Ukranians and Ukranians against Poles; by Slovaks and Romanians against Hungarians; etc.).

 

Yiddish is a High German language of Ashkenazi Jewish origin, spoken in many parts of the world. It developed as a fusion of different German dialects with adstrats of Hebrew, Aramaic and Slavic vocabulary. The language originated in the Ashkenazi culture that developed from about the 10th century in the Rhineland and then spread to Central and Eastern Europe and eventually to other continents. For a significant portion of its history, Yiddish was the primary spoken language of the Ashkenazi Jews. The first language of Ashkenazi Jews may have been Aramaic, the vernacular of the Jews in Roman-era Judea and ancient and early medieval Mesopotamia. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language]

Aramaic is a family of languages (traditionally referred to as "dialects") belonging to the Semitic family, and more specifically, is a part of the Northwest Semitic subfamily, which also includes Canaanite languages such as Hebrew and Phoenician. Aramaic is the main language of the Talmud. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language]

Palestinian Arabic is a Levantine Arabic dialect subgroup spoken by Palestinians. Prior to the 7th century Islamic Conquest and Arabization of the Levant, the primary languages spoken in Palestine, among the predominately Christian and Jewish communities, were Aramaic, Greek, and Syriac. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#Language]

Now join the dots, European Conservative.

Before the (true) Arab conquest the Jews and Christians of Palestine spoke mainly Aramaic. They then converted to Islam and became ‘Arabised’. Their descendants are the Palestinians.

I therefore refute your post. In times gone by the Jews and the Palestinians spoke the same language. That was because they were the same people.

Isn't subsequent ethnic diversity just SUCH a wonder to uncover?

 

So do Jews and Arabs speak the same language?

As for your convenient myth about de demographic history of Palestine, that is a myth.

 

No not inconsistent logic, the entirety of Northern Sudan has been ethnically cleansed, that is not the "independence of Southern Sudan" that is the annexation and ethnic cleansing of all Christians and Animists in the entirety of Norther Sudan.

Um no it wasn't and it isn't, they were Hindus and Buddhists you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Then one wonders why you would ask the question, Arabization is cultural genocide end of.

No it is happening to this very day in Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, and Mauritania as per usual you don't have a clue what you're talking about:

But despite this long, vast history, Berbers today face extinction of a different kind: assimilation into an increasingly Arabized North Africa. “Direct cultural repression was a phenomenon that started as early as the mid-1960s, when the transmissions of the one Berber radio station became limited to four hours a day, and it became illegal to give children Berber names,” write Brett and Fentress. “Systematic repression of festivals, of musical groups, and the abolition of … Berber [language courses] at the University of Algiers were all aimed at establishing the linguistic and cultural unity of the country, and preventing the growth of Berberism into a political force.

Even in Morocco – where many activists claim that Berber’s constitute a 60 percent majority – protests are emerging against the government’s Arabization policy. According to the BBC, four years ago the government passed laws outlawing Berber names, such as Messina and Jurgurtha, and coercing citizens to give their newborns Arabic names.

Berber activists and intellectuals are calling the Arabization policy “a new Arab conquest.” Berber activist Hassan Ouzaat told the BBC, “[Pan-Arabism] generated a movement of culturally genocidal proportions. It is actually trying to subdue local identity in order to augment the numbers of so-called Arabs … Little did they realize that the pan-Arabism based in the Middle East would expand in such a fury to North Africa and result in this pan-Arab hysteria, trying to obliterate anything that is native to North Africa and especially its language.”


http://www.columbia.edu/~ha26/culture/berbers.htm

 

Good God. What sort of a land do you live in where presenting different evidence denotes hate? Sounds like severe censorship. You are new here but you had better read the rules. It is against the rules to make personal attacks. Argue the point. Do not attack the person.

see that was nothing to do with my argument but I am beginning to see where you are coming from.

but they did at the time you are speaking of. Indeed I can remember reading that for centuries Jews who arrived in Palestine and learned the language and joined in activities were well accepted.

Here is the strange thing. When I was in Israel in the 1970's European Jews called arab jews, arab jews!!!!!!!

so a lot has changed in 40 years or so.

back to your ethnic diversity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Jews

love to get that book but it is £57

At the time you were speaking of there was no Jews against the Arabs and given that there were roughly the same number of Christians why have you not separated them. It is a false division to separate yourselves and create an artificial history a separate new ethnicity. Rather than doing that, you would do better including the Palestinian Christians and Muslims than are Israeli citizens as part of your nation. Then you might begin to build the hope of a cohesive state for the future.

Ethnic nationalism has a poor history. I would have thought you would be aware of that.

Here's an interesting article on the subject by the Daily Beast

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/10/the-mizrahi-jewish-refugee-problem.html

There are other interesting point in that article but I will leave it there in the meantime. So you don't like the term arab jew because you wish to deny there are such beings. Hmmmmmmmmm Funnily enough I used to think Jews were only European as well..big mistake.

 

That's 2, in less than 24 hrs, that I have been threatened to have someone tell the mods

folks....... I have been here for 11k posts and to this day, i really dont give a hoot about what the misleading have to say.

please, report all of my posts............................ i aint the one losing the war!

and this place is just a site for me to learn different points of view

nothing will stop the truth!!