Syria doesnt want us there. Turkey doesnt want us there. Why should we be there?

The decision was not a snap decision. The decision was made and announced long ago.

What do you think the US should do to save the PKK from Turkey?

 

That's total BS. Campaign promises mean nothing but general intent.

This was a snap decision made outside of military planning or even consultation.

The first issue should be to stop Turkey from slaughtering Kurds, driving families to be fleeing refugees and putting an end to the idea of Turkey invading Syria.

From there, any change of direction should be made with consultation of our military, our state department and congress.

 

How long would the Kurds need us to protect them? Forever? I'm not unsympathetic to them, but we shouldn't stay there forever.

Also, seems to me they "sacrificed for us" because our aims were in line with theirs. I'm certainly not a foreign policy expert, but did the Kurds defend/stand with us at any time when our goals were not in line with their own? We can't stay there forever.

 

The direcion the Kurds were taking was to form autonomous zones for Kurds in Syria, Iraq and Turkey, as they pretty much live where those countries abut.

They had pretty much achieved autonomy in Iraq, forming a bargain with Sadam Husein. They were still citizens of Iraq, Iraq was still the government, but Kurds could operate relatively independently.

Kurds worked with us to fight AQ and ISS after we conquered Iraq. It's true that there were times when ISIS attacked them, but their sacrifice extended substantially beyond that.

As for what we do today, I think there is plenty of room for creating an improved strategy for the ME in general and this region in particular.

THAT ISN'T what I'm disagreeing with.

I'm disagreeing with the snap decision that did not involve the state department, did not involve our military and did not involve congress.

And, it was absolutley clear that the snap decision would cause the deaths of large numbers of Kurds while it drove tens of thousands to run for their lives - into unknown refugee status somewhere.

Beyond that, he made the decision immediately after talking to Turkey's Erdogan. And, his announcement to us included him talking about his beautiful hotels in Turkey!!! So, this is another example of an act of government that has all the markings of using our government for personal business purposes.

 

The kurds will never get what they want. Their region straddle three countries hostile to their aspiration. Ressorting to terrorism since the 80's is why Turkey is bitch slapping them today. Time for them to lay down their arms and accept the fact that there will never be an independant kurdistan.

 

They got pretty darn close under Saddam Hussein, becoming an autonomous region.

And, I'd point out that the problem Turkey has had is way more than a matter of Kurdish behavior.

Are you really stating that the Kurds should be treated worse than Saddam Hussein treated them?

Are you suggesting that this should be resolved by slaughtering Kurds?

Are you defending the snap decision process that has Kurds being slaughtered while tens of thousands of families are running for their lives?

What's your statement about how this projects to the world what cooperation with the USA means?

 

Turkey is our NATO ally, right? So, if the Kurds were to get the upper hand, we would have to defend Turkey?

I guess all we can do to help a struggling civilization is to, for a limited time, help them to help themselves. At some point, they have to sink or swim.

So what is your idea?

And why does everyone in the ME seem to hate them?

 

My idea is that we follow our plan, including the military and political components of our plan, until we form something that is agreed to be superior.

Sorry, but that doesn't mean Turkey gets to slaughter Kurds right now.

That requires consultation by our military, our state department and our congress.

 

There are no good options. Walking out and allowing these groups to grow and organize, in my opinion, would be hasty at this point and irreparable..

However, you make several fair points. I appreciate your post.

 

I didn't suggest we go to war with Turkey - so stop the strawman BS ... can you not get out a post with out some kind of demonization fallacy ?

The Kurds are in a bad way .. no doubt about it - and I have sympathy for their cause of autonomy -

The situation is complicated - and I gave you a list of 5 possible options - suggesting that you come up with a 6th or choose one.

All you have done is restated the problem - If you don't like the "leave" option .. then either pick one from my list or come up with another.

You talk say "we had no reason" - of course there are reasons - you may not like them but there are good arguments for leaving ... as horrible as that might be - This will be time number 8 letting the Kurds down.

Facts of the matter

1) We are in violation of Syria's sovereignty and international law by being in Syria
2) We violated international law by arming an insurgency in a sovereign nation - and insurgency of radical Islamist extremist Jihadists.
This was a war crime ... FULL STOP - and this is how it will be written in the History Books ... during the same time period of our love affair with Al Qaeda ... We fight on the same side as Al Qaeda in Yemen - and are currently under investigation for complicity in war crimes -

And not to long ago we handed Libya to Al Qaeda ... and other groups of the same ilk.

We violated international law in Iraq - turning that nation into a Jihadist wonderland.

Thanks to our efforts in Syria -400,000 are dead .. the nation is destroyed .. the people of that nation destroyed - some of the most ancient history destroyed - horrible atrocities - and much blood on our hands. "because Assad is a bad guy"

But you don't care about any of that .. just the mention of this reality sends you running... and unable to look.

Millions of people have had their lives destroyed - oh ... lets blame Assad - How - Why ? - because he was in charge of on of the most free and one of the few secular Muslim regimes ? Assad didn't pour tens of thousands of tons of weapons and support for the Holy Jihad being waged against him... We did.

You don't give a hoot about these people - Ohhhh .. but the Kurds .. the poor Kurds.

What about the people of Yemen the we are helping to slaughter - way more dying there than among the Kurds - fighting for the cause of Al Qaeda.. fighting against a people who are also fighting for their autonomy - just like the kurds and like the Syrians .. Fighting against the radical Islamist strict sharia totalitarian nightmare known as Saudi Arabia.

 

Its a terrible pickle - lose lose. Regardless of what we do - The Kurds are going to suffer. We are not going to war with Turkey - we are not going to arm the Kurds - we are not going to have the few hundred soldiers fight (suicide mission option).

This leaves - hide out somewhere and watch .. or Leave.

Either way we look inept and foolish .. lose lose. Suppose we stay - and 2 months from now (or 2 years from now) - after killing who knows how many, Turkey stops beating up on the Kurds .. us having sat back watching and doing nothing to help the Kurds - our few hundreds soldiers sitting an encampment somewhere - watching from the sidelines.

How exactly do you go among the Kurds after the shooting ends ? - what is the effect on the soldier .. and how many years of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder therapy will be needed.

 

Who allowed ISIS to get into power, Qaddafi and Saddam used to have those religious nutcases murdered. Who supports al-queda in Syria, SA that is who, who flew into our buildings, SA that is who. who preaches and spreads violent Wahhabism to the rest of the muslim world, SA that is who. The only reason those people hate us is because we try to tell them how to live, I don't see them bombing ecuador?

Would Iran be the trouble they are to the US if we did not stage a coup and prop up the brutal shah for 20 years? What if we supported the elected government then? What if we didn't attack Iraq for better oil deals for American companies, remember in the 80s when Iraq was bleeding Iran dry? and Isreal and Egypt did camp david, and Isreal was actually working with the Palestinians. But hell, the MIC wasn't making all the money that they are making now.

 

I never said Obama wanted to secretly create ISIS. However, it's a fact that the US supported the rise of Al Qaeda (and its various offshoots) from the very beginning all the way up until the present. The so-called "freedom fighters" that the CIA armed, funded, and trained in Afghanistan during the 1980's were the precursor to Al Qaeda. The US has propped up the corrupt Saudi dictatorship, which has been using Al Qaeda as its proxy for decades. And, yes, this is all done maliciously, with profit and power in mind. "National security" is just propaganda meant to assuage the masses and create the illusion of popular sanction for US dirty wars. The US is an empire, much like Rome was, with a decadent and amoral elite ruling over a benighted mass of commoners. It's so freaking obvious once one removes their nationalist blinders and judges the tree by its rotten fruit.

 

The US should begin supplying the Kurds with our most advanced man-portable anti-tank and anti-air weaponry. If Turkey cannot be counted on as a reliable partner, then we'll find a newer and better one.

 

Please cite the part of the COTUS that Trump is violating by ordering the troops out of Syria?

What do you think the US should do to stop Turkey from slaughtering the Kurds?

 

IOW, you want the US to engage in a proxy war with Turkey by arming up the PKK.
Has the Congress authorized that?

 

Then why support the 'Evil Empire's" war machine's continuing activity in Syria?

 

Nothing really. America and Americans are fine. We just have too much incompetent, selfish government. But, of course, that is our fault.

 

The Kurds know exactly what happens when they mess with Turkey.

"A crushing Turkish military crackdown and the February 1999 capture of the PKK’s leader, Abdullah Ocalan, led the group’s remaining fighters to withdraw to northern Iraq and its leadership to renounce armed struggle and reconstitute itself as a political party. The Turkish government, however, continues to regard the PKK as a terrorist group. The United States—one of Turkey’s NATO allies—lists the PKK as a foreign terrorist organization."
CFR, Inside the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), Backgrounder by Greg Bruno, October 19, 2007.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/inside-kurdistan-workers-party-pkk

The PKK leadership is a bad combo - aggressive, stupid and weak.
The US can't fix that.

 

It was a snap decision made on the phone while Trump was talking to Erdogan.. Just this past week Trump threatened Erdogan saying he would destroy Turkey's economy.

 

In fact, Trump had announced his decision to withdraw from Syria long ago.

 

The Saudis have not supported AQ since the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989.

In 1994 they revoked Osama Bin Laden's citizeship and declared AQ a terrorist organization.

Are you Russian.. Your talking points are a radical departure from the facts.

 

LOL.. and then changed his mind...

Trump has also claimed for months that he defeated ISIS.

 

Source?

 

Trump instructs military to begin planning for withdrawal ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-instructs-military-to...
Apr 04, 2018 · President Trump has instructed military leaders to withdraw U.S. troops from Syria as soon as possible and told them he wants Arab allies to take over and …