Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Comprehension issue Kode .. no understand sentences .. communication not received ? No problem . I can go into baby step mode.

"Reliable Source" --- for the Trinity Doctrine --- and you are asking me to provide .. rather than you .. the one who is coming up with this definition of the Trinity that nobody else believes. .. You say "Your misreading it" .. Misreading What ? What am I misreading .. and why on earth are you asking me to provide you for a reliable source .. for what you claim I am misreading. What am I misreading .. what part of Trinity Doctrine from what ever source ?

So after this clearly wonky ask -- major lapse in logic and reason --- you complain about not understanding .. more clear sentences you want.

You claim I have misread something -- that you yourself have likely not read -- and certainly not understood if you did -- going against the beliefs of every Christian .. those who do and those who do not understand and are just going with the flow. You do realize this right ? that you are running against a near infinite herd of raging Bulls ? You need to help me out here as I have no idea where to begin ? .. do you know who Jesus is friend ? .. no no not the "HeyZeus" Pizza guy .. the died on the cross guy .. calling out that his God has forsaken him after being let down before he dies. ?

"Clear Sentences" ---- KK -- how about go with just one word .. "Homoousios" -- !! .. but - this was told you in previous post so there was no need to understand any of those difficult sentences .. just one word friend .. There is your Reliable Source ..

You realize that you are claiming that not just me .. but Everyone but you.. is misreading the Trinity doctrine .. again most having no clue but going along with the Crowd. But you .. my young apprentice .. profess to have a clue .. about this doctrine you have never read nor understood .. but you claim everyone else .. including theologians of every stripe who have read the doctrine .. has misread this doctrine you have never read .. nor understood..

"Homoousios" - is the famous addition of Emperor Constantine to Church Doctrine .. just type the word into Google and 1000 reliable sources will magically pop up friend. no need to wrestle with those complicated sentences .. just one word is all you need. and don't worry about coming up with a reliable source for the part of this doctrine that every Christian in the world has misread but you .. well .. misread in this particular way

"Reliable Source"
It Turned on a Word: Homoousis and the Council of Nicaea
https://www.academia.edu/33115129/I..._Council_of_Nicaea?email_work_card=view-paper

"Homoousios" - "One Substance With The Father" -- was given already to you .. so no need to go to "Reliable Source" .. gonna be some complicated sentences there for sure .. but we can help --- "one substance with the Father" -- was this the sentence you did not understand ? ..

OK . first the requested "Reliable Source" .. Nicene Creed -- the one folks recite in Church every second Sunday.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;

Sometimes the word "Consubstantial" is used .. which means "Same Substance" .. might as well go with the translation that says "Same Substance"
The word they really should be using is "homoousios" .. as that is the actual Greek Word .. which means "Same Substance as God" .. Same Substance as The Father .. in this case.

To the Greeks .. and the 700 year old Schools of Platonic Philosophy that were still all the rage during Constantine's day .. "Religious Theology 101" in some aspects .. there were 2 kinds of substances 1) that which God is made of .. 2) that which everything else is made of. .. so if one is (1) -- made of the same substance as God .. then one is God ... and this is what Trinity Doctrine is saying. "Jesus is God" .. Case Settled ...

Constantine wanted a unified Church .. but the Church was all squabbling over the nature of the divinity of Christ .. .. the purpose of Nicea .. convened by Constantine .. was to figure this issue out.... Constantine dictated an end to the issue by the insertion of one word "Homoousios" --- settling the issue defacto .. once and for all this aspect of Christs Divinity .. Jesus is God -- in a hallowed Trinity.

 

Rubbish. They quote that Jesus said he was around before Abraham. We know know that Abraham never existed. Even the Bible shows this. Jesus simply believed because of his education. He had been taught the Tanakh from the age of 5 through to at least 13. He believed it. The story of Abraham through to Moses and the Exodus was written in the middle of the 1st millenia BCE. Most scholars accept this. The story is full of errors against the history of the period when Abraham was supposed to have lived. No evidence exists for Israel in Egypt or for the Exodus.
Of course Jesus believed what he had been taught, just as you do. The difference is that you have archeaology and early writings which show you what you have been taught is wrong. Jesus didn't. But you don't want to believe what is before your eyes.
GotQuestions is simply closing its eyes to reality. Jesus wasn't before Abraham was. Jesus was a Jewish preacher.
You expect me to listen to or read what GotQuestions has to say but you don't want to bother to read or understand anything that might upset you faith. That's religious cowardice. Your frightened to read something that might actually make you wonder about your faith. You're running from Facts to accept Fiction. Jesus certainly did exist as a Jewish preacher. Nothing more.
But for the Gospel writers he may never have become known to the general population - let alone future generations.
The same with Mohammed.

 

"For or from" sounds like distinctions without a difference. The point being that a holy God established holy eternal laws for human conduct. Beginning with Adam and Eve who broke the law and ushered in mortality, followed by the personal sins of all following generations, we broke those sacred laws, bringing the weight of justice down upon us forever. So only a holy eternal sacrifice could satisfy the demands of eternal justice. Jesus Christ accomplished that which we could not do for ourselves. So his sacrifice then applies to all mankind, not only to Jews. It had to be done for the salvation and resurrection of mankind. It is the mercy of God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. His gospel of repentance is designed to free us from evil and from the spirit of the adversary. Now if you want to say that the mercy and blessings of life are all that you need and want, then so be it. But you are fooling yourself with temporal delight, and ignoring the long truth. The spirit in which we live and pass away is the spirit that claims us. And God isn't to be mocked, or his warnings taken lightly. There are real consequences to our choices in life.

 

Forget it. You don't seem to be able to ... write .... without having .... to ....but then .... had you ever .... whatever you ..... say .... maybe .... try a course .... you know .... comp.

See your problem now? Man-o-man, you and gluckster.

 

You don't understand the difference between 'for' and 'from' in this context? I thought it explained it very well. There's a difference between dying for someone than dying because of someone.

 

I have never said that the Trinity refers to three Gods or three separate entities for I am fully aware that the Christian Triune God or the Trinity consisting of The Father, The Son (Jesus Christ), The Holy Spirit is just one God (numerically one God).

So let me explain the Trinity:
God is not three entities, nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistence that we call persons.

The Trinity can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity.

The law of identity states: "each thing is the same with itself and different from another": "A is A and not ~A". By this it is meant that each thing comprises it own unique set of characteristic qualities or features, which the ancient Greeks called its essence.

Consequently, things that have the same essence are the same thing, while things that have different essences are different things.

Since God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence, the law of identity is not violated.

Huh?...I believe it's you not understanding. Let me make it very simple for you, the Son is Jesus Christ...period! What is this mumble jumble...the Christ of Jesus! NOT JESUS?...lol

Ok thanks Kode for your post. I hope I got you on the right track now but I won't hold my breath...lol

 

That is a human concept. It originates in the human mind. "But the natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of god, neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned." The human mind is enmity against god. It is "the natural man".

You seem to prove that.

Word salad, and therefore false. Let me explain. The first thing a Christian ("seeker of god") experiences on the journey is the Holy Spirit. Christ is not in view. God is not in view. They only find the HS and it strengthens as the seeker's practice grows and he sheds worldly ideas. Eventually with much dedication and advanced purity the seeker becomes aware of a "second Holy One" on the horizon. As the seeker continues his journey to increasing purity as the bible calls for, the Holy One comes nearer and nearer. Eventually, when the seeker has achieved a very significant purity, the Holy One arrives "face-to-face" and is recognized. It is Christ. When that happens the Holy Spirit is no longer in sight. The presence of the Christ overshadows the HS and the HS can no longer be seen.

The next step is a "merging" with Christ (THE "SON" or "LOGOS"!, ......–NOT "JESUS"!). With complete surrender by the seeker, the Son/Christ takes over the process and becomes the one "running the show" by advancing purification and moving forward.

By the way, this is not something I imagined or dreamed up. This is the established testimony of those who have achieved the goal Jesus represented and advocated for us, and that is "overcoming as I have overcome" and as commanded in 1st John 3:3, and in Isaiah 1:25.

Sure, it's me. Yet you are the one here who is proving unable to receive and digest "strong meat" as you continue to feed on the most mild "milk".

 

Well, he died "because of and from" men. And he died "for" us because he is God and allowed it to be. So he laid down his life that he might take it back up again and conquer death because that was his mission.

 

Position Crucified ?! .. Yeeouuuwwwcccchhiii !? can feel the pain in your response friend .. but chin-up -- this is not the first time you been wrong .. got things completely backward is it ?

The Trinity states that Jesus is God .. Homoousious .. just one word to comprehend .. simple Simon is our Friend .. easy peasy all the way .. try again another day

 

You are not reading the whole article. The article is not about Jesus. It is about the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 with Israel as the suffering servant. The whole of Isaiah is about Israel as the son and servant of god. That's clear throughout the OT.

 

Yours is the mumbo jumbo Mitt. Several religions have 3 gods - not one god split into several pieces. Why should yours be any different.

 

Sorry, I should have said, "I know the Trinity is a difficult concept for you to grasp Kode"...because it's you not understanding the concept which is not surprising since you're the non-believer, the non-Christian, a non-believer that Almighty God exists.

And your recent post #3207 is a conglomeration of mumble jumble word salads which is ridiculously hilarious. You remind me of the VP we got in the oval office...she is the queen of spewing out word salads.

Furthermore, the topic was about explaining the concept of the Trinity which I did, but then you come along rejecting my explanation and saying you're going to explain it then you proceed in going into lala land, with nonsense spewing from you. What you presented is not an explanation of the Trinity concept.

So funny, here you are a non-Christian saying things that a Christian should experience when you don't even believe a word what you're saying and you expect a Christian such as myself to believe your nonsense...lol

It woud be like me a non-believer of Islam, telling Muslims what they should experience in their religion to be one with their god, to be enlightened by Allah.

Ok thanks Kode for your post...you funny guy you!...lol

 

I am not wrong. It is modern Christianity that is wrong. Christians have "dumbed-down" the spiritual meaning into something everyone can understand because the Christian church is driven by money and they want more, more, more.

But I got myself sidetracked and didn't actually finish what I had intended to say about the Trinity......

Eventually with much dedication and advanced purity the seeker in the HS becomes aware of a "second Holy One" on the horizon. As the seeker continues his journey to increasing purity as the bible calls for, the Holy One comes nearer and nearer. Eventually, when the seeker has achieved a very significant purity, the Holy One arrives "face-to-face" and is recognized. It is Christ. When that happens the Holy Spirit is no longer in sight. The presence of the Christ overshadows the HS and the HS can no longer be seen.

The next step is a "merging" with Christ (THE "SON" or "LOGOS"!, ......–NOT "JESUS"!). With complete surrender by the seeker, the Son/Christ takes over the process and becomes the one "running the show" by advancing purification and moving forward. This is "I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me".

As Jesus said, "I go to the Father". So Christ "goes to the Father" FOR the seeker, AS the seeker. They have merged. They are one. (See John 17:21-23)

In time and with progress of purification another Holy One is seen on the horizon. The HS is gone now. All there is, is Christ as One. And as time passes and the process continues, the Holy One on the horizon draws closer and closer. Eventually it is recognized as Christ was recognized previously. But this time it is the God of All That IS itself!!! And when God is in clear sight and "face-to-face", Christ has vanished. Now there is only God. And again the merging happens and the seeker is vanished. All that is known is God. This is the ultimate Oneness spoken of in the bible.

So what actually happened? Simply this: In the beginning of his journey the seeker's impurity makes it impossible to see the totality of the Godhead. He sees only what he can tolerate and that is the HS. But the HS is actually God. It's just that the seeker cannot withstand the full brilliance of the Godhead so he is able to see and accept only as much of God as he can deal with. And then the purification continues until the seeker is able to withstand more of God, and so he sees and find The Son. It's still God but now he sees more and since it is God just as the HS was/is God, the seeker now only sees the vision of God that he is able to withstand which now is the Son, and that is why the HS has vanished.

The Christ is God. So the perception of the HS and the perception of the Christ is actually each a limited perception of God. The seeker in both cases is able to see only as much as he can withstand. But in all three cases it is God, only. But only as much as one can withstand at that point in his process. Hence the Trinity as one God.

This, again, is what the mystics like St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, and Thomas Keating have said and wrote.

 

I was a VERY solid believer when all this was revealed to me.

It is not at all surprising that a "Christian" materialist/literalist could not accept "strong meat". You confirm that part of the bible very well.

 

An addendum to the above for @Mitt Ryan :

I Corinthians, 2:14 - "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

It's a perversion of Isaiah. Sounds like a God complex.

 

Well it was written several hundred years before Jesus. And you have studied it? Jews have always believed they are, as individuals, sons of god and, as a nation, the servant.
How many times have they suffered in their history, even up to the time of Isaiah. All of Isaiah is related to Israel as the 'suffering servant'. Christianity has simply used 52-53 chapters by perverting those chapters. Why would anyone insert a chapter about Jesus among the others which relate to Isaiah. Their belief is that in the end times Israel will come out as world winners under a human man and Yahweh, and all the nations will acknowledge Israels suffering and worship Yahweh. They are the 'suffering servant'. You criticise that while believing in an angel called Moroni showed a man where to find golden plates and how to interprete them. Please!

I don't believe either as an athiest

 

Sorry but to claim to be stray sheep, shepherd, and Lord all at once is clearly delusional, or a delusional understanding of prophecy and reality. Were they all three they wouldn't have any need to be rescued from the Nazi's and restored as a nation in their original place by the Allies. They may have been scattered like sheep. But they are neither shepherd nor Lord. They rejected their Messiah and Lord and were scattered like autumn leaves. By and large, their rescuers the Allies were believers in Jesus Christ. So if their Lord is behind their rescue and restoration as a nation, then he is the Messiah they rejected two thousand years ago. They certainly didn't rescue and establish themselves.
As for Moroni, read Johns book, Revelation 14:6: "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people," (note that he didn't say Bible)

 

Well it certainly wasn't the Word of God revealing this to you, for there is no where written in the Scriptures of the Holy Bible where God tells us what you claim was revealed to you. So whoever revealed this to you told you things that were unbiblical.

It's no wonder that what was revealed to you, you eventually gave up on the religion because it didn't pan out for you, I mean as a seeker your journey didn't result in this increasing purity as you said the Bible calls for. You didn't achieve a very significant purity where you said at this point the Holy One arrives "face-to-face" and is recognized as the Christ. You go on to say, "When that happens the Holy Spirit is no longer in sight. The presence of the Christ overshadows the HS and the HS can no longer be seen."

Obviously, this was the proof you wanted for yourself assuring you that God exists but when it didn't pan out for you, you gave up on the religion. Am I hitting it right on the head?

God wants us to believe in Him through faith in Him, trusting in the Son of God Lord Savior Jesus Christ and not by these unbiblical revelations that you were duped into once believing that came from Him.

A Christian has to be "born again". Let me explain what this means for the believing Christian.

God comes to live in us through Lord Savior Jesus Christ when we are "born again". The term "born again" means to receive spiritual life through faith in Lord Savior Jesus Christ, the Holy Bible likens it to a rebirth and only those who are born again have their sins forgiven and have a relationship with God. The Spirit of God lives in us, and we are His dwelling place.

We Read in Scripture:

20 My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die. Galatians 2:20-21 NLT

16 And what union can there be between God’s temple and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God said: "I will live in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people." 2 Corinthians 6:16 NLT

Your so called "strong meat" is actually "unbiblical meat" in other words they are invalid, un-Christian, they are not supported by the Word of God.

You can't be making things up about God that is not found in Scripture. The Bible warns us that we should not add anything or delete/subtract anything in Scripture.

We Read in Scripture:

5 Every word of God proves true. He is a shield to all who come to him for protection. 6 Do not add to his words, or he may rebuke you and expose you as a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6 NLT

2 Do not add to or subtract from these commands I am giving you. Just obey the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you. Deuteronomy 4:2 NLT

Ok thanks Kode for your posts.

 

So you believe the bible tells everything there is to know about Spirit and our journey, and you believe it is all there in the bible written in clear, literal language? Yes or no?

What you need to know about me is that whenever I sat in meditation on the bible the first thing I did was to pray for protection. I asked the Spirit to stand at the door of my consciousness and not let anything enter that was not God's truth. Then I called on God to reveal His truth to me.

Do you trust God? I did. And I received. So was that which I received from God or not?

 

You're one who doesn't believe, who chooses not to believe, why don't you tell us what you think...the floor is yours.

Ok thanks rstrats for your post, we all await for your response.

 

Did you understand a word of what I was saying? They believe that despite all their sufferings and exiles they will one day be justified before before the nations of the earth. The fact that - to them - Jahweh sent Cyrus to rescue them from the Babylonians - though Cyrus said it was the god Marduk. The Allies didn't put them in their original place. The League of Nations set the ball rolling in the 1920's granting them a right to return. It happened under the United Nations in 1948 due mainly to the weakness of the League of Nations.
Their Lord is not Jesus, it is Yahweh.
By and large their rescuers from the Nazis were Nations. The fact that a Nation declared itself Christian means little. We stand against an aggressor whatever their religious belief. In fact the religion of Germany was/is Christianity during the war.
After 2000 years Israel is again a Nation to be reckoned with. Even in Jesus time the Romans had a regard for them and their religion, allowing them privileges not allowed to other nations.
If they rejected Jesus as their Messiah yet are where they are today, perhaps Jahweh is helping them. Time is of no essence to a god.

Rev. 14:6. Another cherry picked verse.
Try this. 14: 8. Where is the second angel crying 'Babylon is fallen'. Ooops That happened two and a half millenia ago.
Not forgetting the Third angel.

Revelation is based on many images from the OT taken and used by John who adds Jesus to these images.

You should study Judaism and the OT.

 

Israel didn't rescue or reconstitute themselves as a nation after WW2 as if they were their own Messiah and Lord. So their/your take on Isaiah 53 that they are sheep, Messiah, and Lord all together, is nonsense. And Isaiah was not a fool. Gentile Christians saved them and established them in their original homeland which was given them by God thousands of years ago. As for the two Angels, John was speaking about the tribulations of the latter days. An angel would bring and establish Gods true everlasting gospel. And the fall of Babylon would follow. Truth breaks lies. John said it, I didn't. Liken it to what you will. As for Jesus name not mentioned in prophecy. It is irrelevant. His name isn't the purpose of prophecy. His life and mission is the point. They put him to death for the same reasons Isaiah said they would...the chastisement of their peace was upon him. Jesus is every man unjustly afflicted. That's why people marvel at his fidelity to his mission.

 

How about answering my questions in post 3220? Fear gotchya?

 

Anything is irrelevant mis you don't accept it.
Israel didn't rescue or reconstitute themselves as a nation after WW2 as if they were their own Messiah and Lord. So their/your take on Isaiah 53 that they are sheep, Messiah, and Lord all together, is nonsense.
Where did you get that rubbish from.
They believe Jahweh is their shepherd and will provide their Messiah in the end times.He is their Lord. They are his servants.
He rescued them from Babylon through sending Cyrus the Persian. In fact the only Emperor of the time that was tolerant enough to allow Babylonian prisoners of all nations to return to their own lands. Why are you twisting things?
Tell me another nation that has existed for 3000 years.
You are simply twisting Hebrew writings you don't even understand from 2800 years ago to today.

Gentile Christians saved no-one. Israel was never a target for Hitler. Gentile Nations did nothing to save the Jews in Germany from Hitler. Hitler simply hated the Jews, not because of their religion, but mainly because of their powerful influence on the German Economy. You should read some of his early letters. WWII was the result of the vicious demands made on Germany after WWI which left them in a hopeless position economically. Something later recognised by the victors who changes and modified their demands. Hitler came to power because of the demands made by Gentile nations and his ability to turn the Germans to his way of thinking.
You simply have no idea of Judaism or the OT.