A million dead children in Venezeula?

How did you know Sadam had no WMD's?
Even the Russians believed he had them.
He said he tipped them out in the desert but didn't know where.
Like Ho Chi Minh - the Left believed every word of it.
US intelligence believed that before the 2nd Gulf War Sadam
trucked his stockpile to Syria, where it was put to good effect.

But that's not the point.
The so-called "peace movement" helped bring about the sanctions
upon Iraq - then showed for all the world how Bush was starving the
Iraqi children. WHERE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE NOW?

 

Sad but too often true.

 

Hasn't been democratic for some time. Chavez crushed the free press and stole at least one election. Maduro has barely even pretended it is a democracy. If this was democratic government the current regime would have been removed when things were a merely a mess. Since then they have careened downhill into a full blown tragedy.

 

I have literally no idea what your post has to do with mine. Perhaps it wandered in from another thread. Perhaps you have a set range of responses to all posts and this was the one you pulled out of the hat today. Perhaps this really is the best you can do. Who knows. Not me, and probably not you.

 

I think being interested in history generally makes you centre right.

 

Some of us on the left said it wouldn't work too. Deaths are on the hands of the Venezuelan government. Dumb Westerners saying stuff isn't what made this happen.

 

Based on having spent decades studying history and decades interacting with 'right of center' people I can assure you this is categorically not the case. People across the spectrum ignore history when it suits them, but the Right is broadly hostile to education & learning in a way that the left rarely is.

 

When you accuse "the left" of supporting Maduro and Chavez previously, who are you actually referring to? I think you'll find the people who supported Chavez were fairly fringe, like die-hard Maoists. Personally, I'm left of center socially and right of center on trade, and I think Venezuela's government is all kinds of awful. But not specifically because they are "socialist", they are also awful people. Chavez was an ******* and undemocratic, but he did have wide support as some of his policies actually helped the poor while oil prices were good. Now that they are not, the whole thing just fell apart.

What's happening there is a tragedy, but so is what's happening in the Philippines (again, less drug dealers is good, but innocents caught up in this and dying without due process is not) or what happened under extreme right-wing governments in Yugoslavia in the '90's. Extreme left or right all lead to bad outcomes. I honestly think both socialism and capitalism can work together as long as you stick somewhat to the center and you have a decent and competent people governing in a transparent system.

As for Venezuela, I don't doubt some on the right also have good intentions. But what can you do? Invasion is likely to lead to another Iraq-style quagmire. You'll have troops there for 15 years, while both right wing militia's and leftist guerilla's fight it out for control of the country the second you leave. No matter how bad things are now, what follows could be even worse; usually just chaos. Sometimes it's better (like Tunisia, Kosovo) but usually it isn't (see Lybia, Congo, Afghanistan, Syria, Vietnam and countless other examples) So you're left with trying to help the population while avoiding enriching those in power, an almost impossible thing to do.

 

Great post..

Corruption is endemic in Venezuela .. and in Brazil.

 

As I recall Jimmy Carter and other international observers have reported that the elections in VZ were fair. Did they supervise the last election?

 

There is little distinction between Red and Blue in this nation. Trump is the pinnacle of fiscal irresponsibility .. far more than Obama and just as bad as Reagan.

 

Spending - ie overspending - is a problem of both political parties

 

Exactly - This whole "Red vs Blue" narrative serves only to keep the masses from uniting - they vote Red because they hate blue and vice versa.

What we need is a movement - an anti Establishment movement but, where you vote for the AE candidate regardless of which side of the fence they sit. We need to stop this red vs blue bs... if either side gets in we get sodomized ...

 

I do destest liberals who are against everything I am for

But turning your back on the two major parties is not the answer to reform

The two parties must be reformed from within

 

You are hoping for the impossible. How can one expect change .. when one keeps voting for scumbags. The only change for hope is to .. Stop voting for scumbags.

I do not like liberals either .. and certainly not the progressives... and I do not like RINO's which they all are.

Either you respect the founding principles - "Individual liberty is ABOVE" the legitimate authority of Gov't" or you do not.

What we get is Libs trashing individual liberty (and fair and free markets) from one side - and Conservatives doing the same from the other side.

If you want the sodomy sandwich . ... the vote either red or blue.. case that is what you will get.

You want to go through each admin since Reagan ? ... you will see that it matters not.

Go back and listen to Eisenhowers speech ... we are living that reality x 10...

It is not just the Military Industrial Complex though. It is Oligopoly central .. healthcare, Energy, Food, and of course the Media.

The Establishment is the bureaucratic and political elite. These actors and influenced and controlled by the Oligarchs/international financiers. They dictate the domestic agenda (in areas that matter to them) and foreign policy.

Through the MSM and various establishment pundits we are sold a bunch of lies .. and "necessary illusions" "land of the free - home of the brave" we are not. "Give me liberty or Give me death" we are not.

We are a society on its knees - begging to give up essential liberty for temporary security. The promotion of "fear" is everywhere .. we have made it our Patriotic duty to give up essential liberty over a risk of harm that is 400 times less than the risk of harm from "walking".

How did this happen ?

 

How do you expect change voting for some loser who is lucky to get 2% of the vote?

Trump didnt form a third party of true believers he took over the republican party from within

Thats a much better approach