A structured legal analysis of the meaning of UNSC resolution 242

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by klipkap, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    There have been many threads concerning UN Security Council resolution 242 which was passed in the aftermath of the wars of 1966 and 1967. Most of these are now closed, hence this resuscitation. The resolution seems to be unclear, because there is one group which adamantly claims that Israel was not called on by ‘242’ to withdraw from the territories occupied as a result of the 1966/1967 wars, and there is another group which is equally adamant that ‘242’ indeed calls for the withdrawal of the Israeli armed forces.

    Here you can find the full unedited text of UNSCR 242 [Click].

    Obviously resolution of these disagreements is crucial because the consequences are poles apart for the Lands of Armageddon, and are perhaps the most critical reason for the on-going conflict. But how to resolve this? What we firstly need to agree on is that the proper interpretation of ‘242’ is mainly a legal issue. It has little to do with the Bible, with nationalism, with race, with religion, with what is written anecdotally in newspapers, on the internet, with what talking heads tell us on TV, nor with what posters on this forum tell us they believe.

    So would it not therefore be appropriate, given that this topic has arisen lately in various threads on this forum, to get rid of the Myths, the bias, the faith aspects, the racial prejudice … and to seek a disciplined legal analysis?

    If so, then I offer John McHugo’s very structured analysis of ‘242’. Are its sections internally consistent, because they should be? Is the resolution clear. It was particularly that emphasis on internal consistency that impressed me. I thoroughly recommend it as a must-read for all those who do not want to be guilty of uninformed lip-flapping.

    McHugo’s most recent analysis can be found here [click]. This is how he structured it:

    I know that there will be many who are supremely disinterested in the legal analysis of ‘242’. For those with a more disciplined need for formal understanding, I look forward to your comments.
     
  2. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    Klipkap . I hear you .

    You're right - the pro-Israel camp is not interested in facts abt Res 242 . All they want to do is regurgitate whatever Israel's Ministry of TRuth told them to think . and re-inforce their own prejudices.

    cheers ...
     
  3. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Do not cheer so early... read and educate yourself , do not be motivated by hate only...
    U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 242
    NOVEMBER 22, 1967

    +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Following the June '67, 6-Day War, the situation in the Middle |
    | East was discussed by the UN General Assembly, which referred |
    | the issue to the Security Council. After lengthy discussion, a |
    | final draft for a Security Council resolution was |
    | presented by the British Ambassador, Lord Caradon, on November |
    | 22, 1967. It was adopted on the same day. |
    | |
    | This resolution, numbered 242, established provisions and |
    | principles which, it was hoped, would lead to a solution of |
    | the conflict. Resolution 242 was to become the cornerstone of |
    | Middle East diplomatic efforts in the coming decades. |
    | |
    | Following the text of the Resolution, we have included a |
    | number of authoritative interpretations of the wording. |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+


    U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 242
    NOVEMBER 22, 1967


    The Security Council,

    Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle
    East,

    Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war
    and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State
    in the area can live in security,

    Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the
    Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in
    accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

    1. Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the
    establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which
    should include the application of both the following principles:

    (i) Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the
    recent conflict;

    (ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for
    and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and
    political independence of every State in the area and their right to
    live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats
    or acts of force;

    2. Affirms further the necessity

    (a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international
    waterways in the area;
    (b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;
    (c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political
    independence of every State in the area, through measures including the
    establishment of demilitarized zones;

    3. Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative
    to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with
    the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to
    achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the
    provisions and principles in this resolution;

    4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on
    the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as
    possible.


    Statements Clarifying the Meaning of Resolution 242
    ======================================

    Even before the beginning of the Jarring Mission (the Special ³
    Representative as mentioned in the Resolution), the Arab ³
    States insisted that Security Council Resolution 242 called ³
    for a total withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories ³
    occupied in the Six-Day War. Israel held that the withdrawal ³
    phrase in the Resolution was not meant to refer to a total ³
    withdrawal. Following are statements including the ³
    interpretations of various delegations to Resolution 242: ³

    A. United Kingdom

    - Lord Caradon, sponsor of the draft that was about to be adopted,
    stated, before the vote in the Security Council on Resolution 242:

    " . . . the draft Resolution is a balanced whole. TO add to it or
    to detract from it would destroy the balance and also destroy the
    wide measure of agreement we have achieved together. It must be
    considered as a whole as it stands. I suggest that we have reached
    the stage when most, if not all, of us want the draft Resolution,
    the whole draft Resolution and nothing but the draft Resolution."
    (S/PV 1382, p. 31, of 22.11.67)


    - Lord Caradon, interviewed on Kol Israel in February 1973:

    Question: "This matter of the (definite) article which is there in
    French and is missing in English, is that really significant?"

    Answer: "the purposes are perfectly clear, the principle is stated
    in the preamble, the necessity for withdrawal is stated in the
    operative section. And then the essential phrase which is not
    sufficiently recognized is that withdrawal should take place to
    secure and recognized boundaries, and these words were very
    carefully chosen: they have to be secure and they have to be
    recognized. They will not be secure unless they are recognized. And
    that is why one has to work for agreement. This is essential. I
    would defend absolutely what we did. It was not for us to lay down
    exactly where the border should be. I know the 1967 border very
    well. It is not a satisfactory border, it is where troops had to
    stop in 1947, just where they happened to be that night, that is
    not a permanent boundary . . . "


    - Mr. Michael Stewart, Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
    Affairs, in reply to a question in Parliament, 17 November 1969:

    Question: "What is the British interpretation of the wording of the
    1967 Resolution? Does the Right Honorable Gentleman understand it
    to mean that the Israelis should withdraw from all territories
    taken in the late war?"

    Mr. Stewart: "No, Sir. That is not the phrase used in the
    Resolution. The Resolution speaks of secure and recognized
    boundaries. These words must be read concurrently with the
    statement on withdrawal."


    - Mr. Michael Stewart, Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
    Affairs, in a reply to a question in Parliament, 9 December 1969:

    "As I have explained before, there is reference, in the vital
    United Nations Security Council Resolution, both to withdrawal from
    territories and to secure and recognized boundaries. As I have told
    the House previously, we believe that these two things should be
    read concurrently and that the omission of the word 'all' before
    the word 'territories' is deliberate."
     
  4. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Continued from previous


    - Mr. George Brown, British Foreign Secretary in 1967, on 19 January
    1970:

    "I have been asked over and over again to clarify, modify or
    improve the wording, but I do not intend to do that. The phrasing
    of the Resolution was very carefully worked out, and it was a
    difficult and complicated exercise to get it accepted by the UN
    Security Council. "I formulated the Security Council Resolution.
    Before we submitted it to the Council, we showed it to Arab
    leaders. The proposal said 'Israel will withdraw from territories
    that were occupied', and not from 'the' territories, which means
    that Israel will not withdraw from all the territories." (The
    Jerusalem Post, 23.1.70)


    B. United States of America

    - Mr. Arthur Goldberg, US representative, in the Security Council in the
    course of the discussions which preceded the adoption of Resolution 242:

    "To seek withdrawal without secure and recognized boundaries ...
    would be just as fruitless as to seek secure and recognized
    boundaries without withdrawal. Historically, there have never been
    secure or recognized boundaries in the area. Neither the armistice
    lines of 1949 nor the cease-fire lines of 1967 have answered that
    description ... such boundaries have yet to be agreed upon. An
    agreement on that point is an absolute essential to a just and
    lasting peace just as withdrawal is . . . " (S/PV. 1377, p. 37, of
    15. 1 1.67)


    - President Lyndon Johnson, 10 September 1968:

    "We are not the ones to say where other nations should draw lines
    between them that will assure each the greatest security. It is
    clear, however, that a return to the situation of 4 June 1967 will
    not bring peace. There must be secure and there must be recognized
    borders. Some such lines must be agreed to by the neighbors
    involved."


    - Mr. Joseph Sisco, Assistant Secretary of State, 12 July 1970 (NBC
    "Meet the Press"):

    "That Resolution did not say 'withdrawal to the pre-June 5 lines'.
    The Resolution said that the parties must negotiate to achieve
    agreement on the so-called final secure and recognized borders. In
    other words, the question of the final borders is a matter of
    negotiations between the parties."


    - Eugene V. Rostow, Professor of Law and Public Affairs, Yale
    University, who, in 1967, was US Under-Secretary of State for Political
    Affairs:

    a) " . . . paragraph 1 (i) of the Resolution calls for the
    withdrawal of Israeli armed forces 'from territories occupied in
    the recent conflict', and not 'from the territories occupied in the
    recent conflict'. Repeated attempts to amend this sentence by
    inserting the word 'the' failed in the Security Council. It is,
    therefore, not legally possible to assert that the provision
    requires Israeli withdrawal from all the territories now occupied
    under the cease-fire resolutions to the Armistice Demarcation
    lines." (American Journal of International Law, Volume 64,
    September 1970, p. 69)

    b) "The agreement required by paragraph 3. of the Resolution, the
    Security Council said, should establish 'secure and recognized
    boundaries' between Israel and its neighbors 'free from threats or
    acts of force', to replace the Armistice Demarcation lines
    established in 1949, and the cease-fire lines of June 1967. The
    Israeli armed forces should withdraw to such lines as part of a
    comprehensive agreement, settling all the issues mentioned in the
    Resolution, and in a condition of peace." (American Journal of
    International Law, Volume 64, September 1970, p. 68)


    C. USSR

    - Mr. Vasily Kuznetsov said in discussions that preceded the adoption of
    Resolution 242:

    " ... phrases such as 'secure and recognized boundaries'. What does
    that mean? What boundaries are these? Secure, recognized - by
    whom, for what? Who is going to judge how secure they are? Who must
    recognize them? ... there is certainly much leeway for different
    interpretations which retain for Israel the right to establish new
    boundaries and to withdraw its troops only as far as the lines
    which it judges convenient." (S/PV. 1373, p. 112, of 9.11.67)


    D. Brazil

    - Mr. Geraldo de Carvalho Silos, Brazilian representative, speaking in
    the Security Council after the adoption of Resolution 242:

    "We keep constantly in mind that a just and lasting peace in the
    Middle East has necessarily to be based on secure, permanent
    boundaries freely agreed upon and negotiated by the neighboring
    States." (S/PV. 1382, p. 66, 22.11.67)
     
  5. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    You have provided this list before and your reasoning was countered. So you just produce it again. Very crude.

    1) But thanks for that particular quote above, HBendor. It shows in a nutshell how the interpretations provided by the various illuminaries which you quoted is utterly impractical. Following those interpretations we can see that Kusnetsov clearly understood that all Israel has to do is to scupper or stonewall any negotiations and then she is “allowed” by UNSCR 242 to stay in any contested territories gained by her. That is why Bibi is on record as boasting that he screwed up the Oslo initiative. And that is exactly what Israel has been doing.

    Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that that is what the UN intended? If so, what is your address in Cloud-Cuckoo land?

    2) You quote extremely selectively from the country representatives who voted on UNSCR 242. That is called cherry-picking. It is designed to create a spin pretending it to be the weight of the UN opinion. That is dishonest. Also, you did not quote nearly enough of the discussion leading up to UNSCR 242. The majority of the country representative clearly stated that they were voting as they did on the clear understanding that Israel was required to withdraw from (the) territories that is occupied as a result of its aggressions in 1966 and 1967, just as they were voting to require access by Israel to (the) international waters that Egypt was blocking. Are you suggesting that because a “the” was missing regarding those ‘waters’ that Egypt could pick which of them Israel was to be allowed access to? McGee has shown this to be a ridiculous position with his “dogs in the park” example.

    Since you insist on c-and-p from chronic anti-Palestinian Zionist web sites (such as CAMERA and Commentary Magazine – but without proper acknowledgements) allow me to do far better than you and c-and-p from the words of the country representatives at UNSCR 242. You can find the source reference for all of the following here (click):
    What HBendor would have us believe is that, until “secure and recognized boundaries” have been established, Israel need not withdraw its forces from the occupied territories. In other words, if Israel were to prevent the success of negotiations leading to agreed borders, she would be allowed to occupy the conquered territories ad infinitum. Does anyone other than radical Zionist apologists believe that this is what the World intended? Well. It seems that they must, because that is EXACTLY what has happened over the past 45 years.

    # It is said that Israel delivered a peace offer to Arab leaders in the aftermath of the 1966/1967 wars, but that is an easily proven MYTH.
    # According to Israel’s ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs, Shlomo Ben-Ami (Scars of war; Wounds of Peace; p.131) Golda Meir, Israel’s Prime Minister did her utmost to thwart William Rogers’ peace initiative in December 1969, an initiative which was aimed at redefining the borders and the withdrawal of Israel’s military. How more clear do we need to understand Israel’s long-term tactics?
    # When Anwar Sadat made peace proposals to the UN representative in February 1971, Israel rejected them. Shlomo Ben-Ami is utterly clear that Golda Meir must accept the principal part of the blame for the subversion of this unique opportunity for peace.
    # In February 1973 both Israel and Henry Kissenger rejected a last-ditch Sadat proposal for peace and negotiations. This led directly to the Yom-Kippur war, the Geneva Peace Conference, and Egypt’s regaining of Sinai. Peace initiatives by Egypt had failed; war had won.
    # Netanyahu is on record as claiming to have deliberately foiled the 1993 Oslo Accord.
    # When the Arab league rejuvenated their acceptance of UNGAR 242 at their Beirut Summit in 2002, Israel rejected the offer with USA support
    # When the Arab League reconfirmed their offer in 2007, those two countries again rejected the offer.

    It is utterly clear. The UN produced a fuzzy UNGAR 242 which was intended to achieve Israeli withdrawal while at the same time define borders which were mutually acceptable. Instead its less-than-clear wording has allowed Israel to hang on to the Occupied Territories and to build illegal settlements on them, all only achievable via USA support and vetoes.

    Against that massive weight of evidence who gives a fig what a Zionist apologists like Rostow has to say? We can all see only too clearly that Israel is still intent on violating international law in order to achieve the dream of Eretz Yisrael that Ben-Gurion so clearly outlined in 1956 when Israel had stated yet another war to try to achieve that objective. That is not a personal opinion as WanRen, Borat and OYM like to claim without substance. I have provided full verifiable references.

    So we go back to HBendor's quote of Kuznetsove at the start. The Russian understood the tactics of the Zionist supporters perfectly. Is anyone surprised that the Palestinians insist on resisting this to this day? And the Zonist apologists cynically claim that the Arabs stand in the way of peace. Sorry - the dream of Eretz-Yisrael clearly lives on. See HBendor's undefensible signature.
     
  6. Goomba

    Goomba New Member

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    A fine job, Klipklap (as always).

    ;)
     
  7. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Speaking of cherry picking... the twisted, warped denunciation is so obvious it hurts my hair.
    The Initiators of the resolution from Britain quotes are missing and this shows without a doubt, the one sided, once again persistent frivolous claim that the Arabs own part of the Jewish Patrimony... I disagree...
    How one sees the country in the next 10 years is different in my eyes than anyone's...

    The white interlopers in South Africa are still thinking they have the upper hand. The Muslims in Spain still think they will reconquer "Andalous" by sheer numbers, without a fight, and the squatters in Israel have no leg to stand on. Have a nice day YA ALL...
     
  8. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    I was pointing out those that you left out, HBendor. Focus, lad, focus.
    But since you ask for the views of the British representative and chief drafter of UNSCR 242, here you are - brace yourself:

    [Note that the quote is from CAMERA [http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1267]]

    So there you have it, HBendor, the chief drafter of UNSCR 242: the principle that you couldn’t hold territory because you conquered it. Are you sure you got that, HBendor, the main man said Israel couldn’t acquire territory because it invaded it. Right? Settled?

    So what did he say? “But I know the 1967 line, and it’s a rotten line” . He is quite clear that he expected the parties to negotiate a more appropriate border, presumably involving a balanced “give and take” (see Dean Rusk below).

    Finally: "it (security) can only come from agreement and mutual respect and understanding” .

    So when you put all of Caradon’s key concepts together, I put it to you that all he meant was that Israel should withdraw, not to the “green line” but to a negotiated border, and that that border should be recognised by the opposing parties.

    I will look for the Spectator link (seems to be broken) in which Caradon is quoted as saying that the "annexation of East Jerusalem and the creeping colonisation of the West Bank...was in clear defiance of Resolution 242"

    It also contains a telling comment by another key player:
    Happy now that you have the verified position of the British representative? Good.

    I put it to you that that all those explanations that you said I left out are VERY different from your credo of “JUDEA & SAMARIA are clear and unquestionably JEWISH!” is in line with UNSCR 242 and Caradon’s views.
     
  9. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Some people being so enthralled with themselves, they have only rehashed one side of history over and over again that when faced with reality, BLANK they omit, or BLACK OUT the realities of the resolution... In Latin Italian it is called DURO DE COMPRENDONIO!

    You side with the Arabs, you see it from their point of view... as an Israel and a patriot, my take is different... Read also Michael Stewart question and George Brown on the subject matter FURTHER DOWN...

    I do not wish to carry on with this charade, and I do not intend to go farther than that... your mind is set up so is mine.

    I say again notwithstanding ALL THE RESOLUTIONS OF THE WORLD, this LAND is the heritage of the Jewish People from Time Immemorial PERIOD!!!

    The ARABS have had their self Determination in 22 Countries created for this purpose this past century!.

    A. United Kingdom

    - Lord Caradon, sponsor of the draft that was about to be adopted,
    stated, before the vote in the Security Council on Resolution 242:

    " . . . the draft Resolution is a balanced whole. TO add to it or
    to detract from it would destroy the balance and also destroy the
    wide measure of agreement we have achieved together. It must be
    considered as a whole as it stands. I suggest that we have reached
    the stage when most, if not all, of us want the draft Resolution,
    the whole draft Resolution and nothing but the draft Resolution."
    (S/PV 1382, p. 31, of 22.11.67)


    - Lord Caradon, interviewed on Kol Israel in February 1973:

    Question: "This matter of the (definite) article which is there in
    French and is missing in English, is that really significant?"

    Answer: "the purposes are perfectly clear, the principle is stated
    in the preamble, the necessity for withdrawal is stated in the
    operative section. And then the essential phrase which is not
    sufficiently recognized is that withdrawal should take place to
    secure and recognized boundaries, and these words were very
    carefully chosen: they have to be secure and they have to be
    recognized. They will not be secure unless they are recognized. And
    that is why one has to work for agreement. This is essential. I
    would defend absolutely what we did. It was not for us to lay down
    exactly where the border should be. I know the 1967 border very
    well. It is not a satisfactory border, it is where troops had to
    stop in 1947, just where they happened to be that night, that is
    not a permanent boundary . . . "


    - Mr. Michael Stewart, Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
    Affairs, in reply to a question in Parliament, 17 November 1969:


    Question: "What is the British interpretation of the wording of the
    1967 Resolution? Does the Right Honorable Gentleman understand it
    to mean that the Israelis should withdraw from all territories
    taken in the late war?"

    Mr. Stewart: "No, Sir. That is not the phrase used in the
    Resolution. The Resolution speaks of secure and recognized
    boundaries. These words must be read concurrently with the
    statement on withdrawal."


    - Mr. Michael Stewart, Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
    Affairs, in a reply to a question in Parliament, 9 December 1969:

    "As I have explained before, there is reference, in the vital
    United Nations Security Council Resolution, both to withdrawal from
    territories and to secure and recognized boundaries. As I have told
    the House previously, we believe that these two things should be
    read concurrently and that the omission of the word 'all' before
    the word 'territories' is deliberate."

    - Mr. George Brown, British Foreign Secretary in 1967, on 19 January
    1970:

    "I have been asked over and over again to clarify, modify or
    improve the wording, but I do not intend to do that. The phrasing
    of the Resolution was very carefully worked out, and it was a
    difficult and complicated exercise to get it accepted by the UN
    Security Council. "I formulated the Security Council Resolution.
    Before we submitted it to the Council, we showed it to Arab
    leaders. The proposal said 'Israel will withdraw from territories
    that were occupied', and not from 'the' territories, which means
    that Israel will not withdraw from all the territories." (The
    Jerusalem Post, 23.1.70)
     
  10. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Your view is quite clear HBendor and has been for many years. You have an emotional view whereas I base mine on the full historical record. In fact I admire your dedication, but do not agree with the content nor much of your interpretation thereof. For instance I am still waiting for your proof of your claim that Palestinians are mainly descendants of recent Arab immigrants. In fact I have been waiting for over a year now.

    The intention of the 242 drafters is quite clear. They wanted the parties to negotiate agreed borders and for Israel to withdraw from territory that was not hers. Do you disagree with that? Oh ... I forgot, your position is that it is irrelevant.

    Anyway, for the rest of us, the drafters tried to be too clever in their complicated wording because that negotiation outcome has not been realised for various reasons. What both the drafters and the voting country representatives clearly did not intend was for Israel to be allowed to hang on to conquered territory for time immemorial. Does anyone disagree with that?

    In other words Zionists like Golda Meir (in rejecting Sadat's two peace proposals) and Bibi (bragging that he sunk the Oslo Accord) and others (rejecting the two very important Arab League summit proposals) are simply making 242 unimplementable and are supported by 'Murkan vetoes. Does everyone understand why that on-going travesty makes the Palestinians mad? If Yes, then can everyone understand why they continue to lob poorly effective rockets at Israel?
     
  11. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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  12. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    I watched the video. I check all posts that I respond to. It is a very well made video and I understand why it makes you proud of Israel.

    However, it is a classic strawman.

    It does nothing to prove your claim that the Palestinians are Arabs who immigrated relatively recently to Israel from surrounding countries.
    It does nothing to show that the drafters and voting country representative on UNSCR 242 intended for Israel to be able to hang onto invaded territories more than 40 years after the resolution was passed.
    It does nothing to disprove my claim that Israel still has Etretz Yisrael as her ultimate goal in direct violation of international law and the UN Charter.

    We are still waiting.

    But thanks for the video. Very pretty.
     
  13. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    My reason is the following, I did write about this in the past and I could not find the document...

    Here it is.

    THE QUASI PALESTINIANS WHENCE DID THEY ARRIVE?

    ~by HBendor

    In numerous books and pamphlets and lectures throughout the world, and especially on these boards, detractors of Israel and their colleagues have reiterated the theme of the "physical expulsion of the Arabs from Palestine" parroting the central axiom of Arab propaganda against Israel. How much truth is in this allegation?



    Unbiased examination of the period in question will demonstrate that it was as a result of Jewish settlement and development in Palestine, that the Arab sector expanded and flourished as never before, and precisely in those areas, both urban and rural, of dense Jewish life and activities. Examination of sources will show that even before the beginning of Zionist settlement in the 1880s, when the predominant demographic trend was large-scale emigration from the land rather than immigration toward it - even then, the influx of both Arab and non-Arab elements, for various reasons, was prevalent. For example, many of the Egyptians who invaded Palestine in 1831 with Mohammed Ali's conquering army remained in the country even after the Turkish re-conquest in 1840. Several thousand Egyptians who were brought in along with the conquerors to settle vacant areas of the land joined the considerable number of deserters who had previously fled Egypt in order to escape compulsory army service.



    In 183I, wrote the French scholar Mohammed Sabry, "over six thousand [fellahin = peasants] crossed the Egyptian border, and Abdullah [governor of Acre], in his great generosity, refused to return them." Please read :- (L'Empire Egyptien sous Mohamed Ali et la question d'Orient). After the conquest as well, Mohammed Ali continued to bring settlers from Egypt to Palestine. Some of them settled in the Hula Valley, among them Bedouin from the tribes of Ghawarna and Arb-el-Zweid. The al-Hanadi tribe settled in the Jordan Valley. The Hadera region was settled by the Arb Damaira Tribe, and Wadi Hawarat (Emek-Hefer) by the Arb Ofi tribe. Most of the city of Jaffa, according to an 1878 British Palestine Exploration Society map of the area, was made up of Egyptian neighborhoods.



    The Egyptians built eight villages on the coastal plain, not far from the spot where Tel-Aviv was established (see the entry on "Palestine" in the 1911 edition of the "Encyc. Britannica"). Notable in the Tel Aviv area, were the villages of Feja, Jeljilya, Sumail, Sheikh-Mounis, Salame, and Umlabis (later Petah-Tikvah). Egyptians also inhabited the villages of Zarnuga, Kubeibeh, and Qatra (later Gedera) in the south. The Historian DeHaas reports that "Ibrahim Pasha, who left Palestine in 1941, had left behind him permanent Egyptian colonies at Beisan, Nablus, Irbid, Acre, and Jaffa, where some five hundred Egyptian soldiers' families established a new quarter" (History of Palestine, p. 419). That is, at least two thousand Egyptian immigrants settled in one place alone (Jaffa) in the nineteenth century, and with the passage of time their children and grandchildren were assimilated into that demographic conglomeration today known as "the Palestinians".



    In 1844 the American expedition under William Francis Lynch found some eight thousand Turks in Jaffa among a population of thirteen thousand. Lynch also found that the Moslem population of Safed was largely descended from Algerian tribes that had fought against the French and fled to Damascus and from there to Safed, and from Kurds who had settled in the city during an earlier period (Narrative of the US Expedition to the River Jordan and the Dead Sea). The Algerians (popularly termed "Mograbim") established four villages in the Lower Galilee (Kafar Sabat, Ma'ader, Ulam, and Sha'ara), and in the Upper Galilee the villages of Dalton, Alma, and Dishon.



    In 1878 Circassian refugees from the Caucasus who had fled the Russian Christian rule arrived in Palestine. Some settled in eastern Transjordan and some in the western part, where they established the villages of Kafar Kama, Sarona, and Reihaniya. During the period of Turkish rule, Moslems from Bosnia also found refuge in Palestine and settled near Caesarea.



    Lloyd George (in The Truth about the Peace Treaties, Vol. II, p. 1127) quotes a statement by Lord Milner to the effect that <"colonies of Turkoman, Circassians, Kurds, and other savage races have been planted about to hold the country in subjection."> Unquote… The English historian James Parkes, in his book Whose Land?, enumerates over twenty villages in the Galilee alone whose inhabitants came from distant lands during the last hundred years…He describes the phenomenon in these terms: "Israelite, Syrian, Greek, Arab, Latin, Egyptian, and Balkan peoples have all contributed to the present population ... In some cases, villages are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the nineteenth century… There are villages of Bosnians, Druze, Circassians, and Egyptians." The Encyclopedia. Britannica (Eleventh edition, 191 1) also speaks of the mosaic of peoples and tribes that comprised the "Land of Israel" of that day, before they came to be called "Palestinians": Turks, Jews, "very large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece, and Italy," Persians, Afghans, Motawila, Kurds, Germans, Bosnians, Circassians, Sudanese, Algerians, and Samaritans.



    Arab immigrants, mostly from Egypt, settled next to the Jewish villages in the south which were established in the early 1880s - Rishon-Lezion, Nes-Ziona, Rehovot, Ekron and Gedera - and found employment there in the citrus groves and vineyards. The Belgian Company that laid the Jaffa-Jerusalem railway (opened in 1892) brought in hundreds of Egyptian laborers. After the British conquest many Syrian and Lebanese were employed in such projects as the laying of the Haifa-Kuneitra railway (which also employed thousands of Egyptians), building army camps, paving roads, and building the Haifa port. Many of these imported laborers did not return to their countries of origin when the work was finished, but remained in the country.



    So when I mentioned in the past... that the MAJORITY of Muslims in Palestine are not even Arab (NOW... they have forced this designation upon themselves to be amongst peers... to say they belong to the ARAB WORLD... and thus be taken into consideration...)


    Unfortunately this strategy has born fruit in an American World weak on historical knowledge. They are now recognized as a People...

    WOW... the biggest hoax was not made by P. T. Barnum but by the so-called Palestinian of today.



    In numerous books and pamphlets and lectures throughout the world, and especially on these boards, detractors of Israel and their colleagues have reiterated the theme of the "physical expulsion of the Arabs from Palestine" parroting the central axiom of Arab propaganda against Israel. How much truth is in this allegation?



    Unbiased examination of the period in question will demonstrate that it was as a result of Jewish settlement and development in Palestine, that the Arab sector expanded and flourished as never before, and precisely in those areas, both urban and rural, of dense Jewish life and activities. Examination of sources will show that even before the beginning of Zionist settlement in the 1880s, when the predominant demographic trend was large-scale emigration from the land rather than immigration toward it - even then, the influx of both Arab and non-Arab elements, for various reasons, was prevalent. For example, many of the Egyptians who invaded Palestine in 1831 with Mohammed Ali's conquering army remained in the country even after the Turkish re-conquest in 1840. Several thousand Egyptians who were brought in along with the conquerors to settle vacant areas of the land joined the considerable number of deserters who had previously fled Egypt in order to escape compulsory army service.



    In 183I, wrote the French scholar Mohammed Sabry, "over six thousand [fellahin = peasants] crossed the Egyptian border, and Abdullah [governor of Acre], in his great generosity, refused to return them." Please read :- (L'Empire Egyptien sous Mohamed Ali et la question d'Orient). After the conquest as well, Mohammed Ali continued to bring settlers from Egypt to Palestine. Some of them settled in the Hula Valley, among them Bedouin from the tribes of Ghawarna and Arb-el-Zweid. The al-Hanadi tribe settled in the Jordan Valley. The Hadera region was settled by the Arb Damaira Tribe, and Wadi Hawarat (Emek-Hefer) by the Arb Ofi tribe. Most of the city of Jaffa, according to an 1878 British Palestine Exploration Society map of the area, was made up of Egyptian neighborhoods.
     
  14. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    continued from previous

    The Egyptians built eight villages on the coastal plain, not far from the spot where Tel-Aviv was established (see the entry on "Palestine" in the 1911 edition of the "Encyc. Britannica"). Notable in the Tel Aviv area, were the villages of Feja, Jeljilya, Sumail, Sheikh-Mounis, Salame, and Umlabis (later Petah-Tikvah). Egyptians also inhabited the villages of Zarnuga, Kubeibeh, and Qatra (later Gedera) in the south. The Historian DeHaas reports that "Ibrahim Pasha, who left Palestine in 1941, had left behind him permanent Egyptian colonies at Beisan, Nablus, Irbid, Acre, and Jaffa, where some five hundred Egyptian soldiers' families established a new quarter" (History of Palestine, p. 419). That is, at least two thousand Egyptian immigrants settled in one place alone (Jaffa) in the nineteenth century, and with the passage of time their children and grandchildren were assimilated into that demographic conglomeration today known as "the Palestinians".



    In 1844 the American expedition under William Francis Lynch found some eight thousand Turks in Jaffa among a population of thirteen thousand. Lynch also found that the Moslem population of Safed was largely descended from Algerian tribes that had fought against the French and fled to Damascus and from there to Safed, and from Kurds who had settled in the city during an earlier period (Narrative of the US Expedition to the River Jordan and the Dead Sea). The Algerians (popularly termed "Mograbim") established four villages in the Lower Galilee (Kafar Sabat, Ma'ader, Ulam, and Sha'ara), and in the Upper Galilee the villages of Dalton, Alma, and Dishon.



    In 1878 Circassian refugees from the Caucasus who had fled the Russian Christian rule arrived in Palestine. Some settled in eastern Transjordan and some in the western part, where they established the villages of Kafar Kama, Sarona, and Reihaniya. During the period of Turkish rule, Moslems from Bosnia also found refuge in Palestine and settled near Caesarea.



    Lloyd George (in The Truth about the Peace Treaties, Vol. II, p. 1127) quotes a statement by Lord Milner to the effect that <"colonies of Turkoman, Circassians, Kurds, and other savage races have been planted about to hold the country in subjection."> Unquote&#8230; The English historian James Parkes, in his book Whose Land?, enumerates over twenty villages in the Galilee alone whose inhabitants came from distant lands during the last hundred years&#8230;He describes the phenomenon in these terms: "Israelite, Syrian, Greek, Arab, Latin, Egyptian, and Balkan peoples have all contributed to the present population ... In some cases, villages are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the nineteenth century&#8230; There are villages of Bosnians, Druze, Circassians, and Egyptians." The Encyclopedia. Britannica (Eleventh edition, 191 1) also speaks of the mosaic of peoples and tribes that comprised the "Land of Israel" of that day, before they came to be called "Palestinians": Turks, Jews, "very large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece, and Italy," Persians, Afghans, Motawila, Kurds, Germans, Bosnians, Circassians, Sudanese, Algerians, and Samaritans.



    Arab immigrants, mostly from Egypt, settled next to the Jewish villages in the south which were established in the early 1880s - Rishon-Lezion, Nes-Ziona, Rehovot, Ekron and Gedera - and found employment there in the citrus groves and vineyards. The Belgian Company that laid the Jaffa-Jerusalem railway (opened in 1892) brought in hundreds of Egyptian laborers. After the British conquest many Syrian and Lebanese were employed in such projects as the laying of the Haifa-Kuneitra railway (which also employed thousands of Egyptians), building army camps, paving roads, and building the Haifa port. Many of these imported laborers did not return to their countries of origin when the work was finished, but remained in the country.



    So when I mentioned in the past... that the MAJORITY of Muslims in Palestine are not even Arab (NOW... they have forced this designation upon themselves to be amongst peers... to say they belong to the ARAB WORLD... and thus be taken into consideration...)


    Unfortunately this strategy has born fruit in an American World weak on historical knowledge. They are now recognized as a People...

    WOW... the biggest hoax was not made by P. T. Barnum but by the so-called Palestinian of today.



    In numerous books and pamphlets and lectures throughout the world, and especially on these boards, detractors of Israel and their colleagues have reiterated the theme of the "physical expulsion of the Arabs from Palestine" parroting the central axiom of Arab propaganda against Israel. How much truth is in this allegation?



    Unbiased examination of the period in question will demonstrate that it was as a result of Jewish settlement and development in Palestine, that the Arab sector expanded and flourished as never before, and precisely in those areas, both urban and rural, of dense Jewish life and activities. Examination of sources will show that even before the beginning of Zionist settlement in the 1880s, when the predominant demographic trend was large-scale emigration from the land rather than immigration toward it - even then, the influx of both Arab and non-Arab elements, for various reasons, was prevalent. For example, many of the Egyptians who invaded Palestine in 1831 with Mohammed Ali's conquering army remained in the country even after the Turkish re-conquest in 1840. Several thousand Egyptians who were brought in along with the conquerors to settle vacant areas of the land joined the considerable number of deserters who had previously fled Egypt in order to escape compulsory army service.



    In 183I, wrote the French scholar Mohammed Sabry, "over six thousand [fellahin = peasants] crossed the Egyptian border, and Abdullah [governor of Acre], in his great generosity, refused to return them." Please read :- (L'Empire Egyptien sous Mohamed Ali et la question d'Orient). After the conquest as well, Mohammed Ali continued to bring settlers from Egypt to Palestine. Some of them settled in the Hula Valley, among them Bedouin from the tribes of Ghawarna and Arb-el-Zweid. The al-Hanadi tribe settled in the Jordan Valley. The Hadera region was settled by the Arb Damaira Tribe, and Wadi Hawarat (Emek-Hefer) by the Arb Ofi tribe. Most of the city of Jaffa, according to an 1878 British Palestine Exploration Society map of the area, was made up of Egyptian neighborhoods.



    The Egyptians built eight villages on the coastal plain, not far from the spot where Tel-Aviv was established (see the entry on "Palestine" in the 1911 edition of the "Encyc. Britannica"). Notable in the Tel Aviv area, were the villages of Feja, Jeljilya, Sumail, Sheikh-Mounis, Salame, and Umlabis (later Petah-Tikvah). Egyptians also inhabited the villages of Zarnuga, Kubeibeh, and Qatra (later Gedera) in the south. The Historian DeHaas reports that "Ibrahim Pasha, who left Palestine in 1941, had left behind him permanent Egyptian colonies at Beisan, Nablus, Irbid, Acre, and Jaffa, where some five hundred Egyptian soldiers' families established a new quarter" (History of Palestine, p. 419). That is, at least two thousand Egyptian immigrants settled in one place alone (Jaffa) in the nineteenth century, and with the passage of time their children and grandchildren were assimilated into that demographic conglomeration today known as "the Palestinians".



    In 1844 the American expedition under William Francis Lynch found some eight thousand Turks in Jaffa among a population of thirteen thousand. Lynch also found that the Moslem population of Safed was largely descended from Algerian tribes that had fought against the French and fled to Damascus and from there to Safed, and from Kurds who had settled in the city during an earlier period (Narrative of the US Expedition to the River Jordan and the Dead Sea). The Algerians (popularly termed "Mograbim") established four villages in the Lower Galilee (Kafar Sabat, Ma'ader, Ulam, and Sha'ara), and in the Upper Galilee the villages of Dalton, Alma, and Dishon.



    In 1878 Circassian refugees from the Caucasus who had fled the Russian Christian rule arrived in Palestine. Some settled in eastern Transjordan and some in the western part, where they established the villages of Kafar Kama, Sarona, and Reihaniya. During the period of Turkish rule, Moslems from Bosnia also found refuge in Palestine and settled near Caesarea.
     
  15. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    continued from previous


    Lloyd George (in The Truth about the Peace Treaties, Vol. II, p. 1127) quotes a statement by Lord Milner to the effect that <"colonies of Turkoman, Circassians, Kurds, and other savage races have been planted about to hold the country in subjection."> Unquote&#8230; The English historian James Parkes, in his book Whose Land?, enumerates over twenty villages in the Galilee alone whose inhabitants came from distant lands during the last hundred years&#8230;He describes the phenomenon in these terms: "Israelite, Syrian, Greek, Arab, Latin, Egyptian, and Balkan peoples have all contributed to the present population ... In some cases, villages are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the nineteenth century&#8230; There are villages of Bosnians, Druze, Circassians, and Egyptians." The Encyclopedia. Britannica (Eleventh edition, 191 1) also speaks of the mosaic of peoples and tribes that comprised the "Land of Israel" of that day, before they came to be called "Palestinians": Turks, Jews, "very large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece, and Italy," Persians, Afghans, Motawila, Kurds, Germans, Bosnians, Circassians, Sudanese, Algerians, and Samaritans.



    Arab immigrants, mostly from Egypt, settled next to the Jewish villages in the south which were established in the early 1880s - Rishon-Lezion, Nes-Ziona, Rehovot, Ekron and Gedera - and found employment there in the citrus groves and vineyards. The Belgian Company that laid the Jaffa-Jerusalem railway (opened in 1892) brought in hundreds of Egyptian laborers. After the British conquest many Syrian and Lebanese were employed in such projects as the laying of the Haifa-Kuneitra railway (which also employed thousands of Egyptians), building army camps, paving roads, and building the Haifa port. Many of these imported laborers did not return to their countries of origin when the work was finished, but remained in the country.



    So when I mentioned in the past... that the MAJORITY of Muslims in Palestine are not even Arab (NOW... they have forced this designation upon themselves to be amongst peers... to say they belong to the ARAB WORLD... and thus be taken into consideration...)


    Unfortunately this strategy has born fruit in an American World weak on historical knowledge. They are now recognized as a People...

    WOW... the biggest hoax was not made by P. T. Barnum but by the so-called Palestinian of today
    .
     
  16. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    I notice that there is much potential for duplications amongst the examples which you quote (excluding the post duplication), meaning that the various writers could in part be referring to the same immigrations and that they are not necessarily cumulative. Nonetheless I will ignore this.
    So let us try to add them together &#8230; I get something around 21 000. Let us be generous and double that to cater for the unquanitfied immigrations that you mentioned. We have 42 000.
    Now let us look at the demographics of Palestine in the 19th century incorporating data from Sergio DellaPergola, Bachi (Israel&#8217;s first Statistician General), Alexander Scholch, and demographer Justin McCarthy. In 1800 the non-Jewish population is estimated to have been 268 000. In 1850 the estimate is 343 000, 1878 &#8211; 447 000, and in 1890 &#8211; 489 000.

    The anomalously fast rise between 1850 and 1878 could well be explained in part by the immigrations that HBendor mentions. However, the 42000 that we calculated is barely 15% of the total in the mid-1800s and <10% of the late-1800s. I put it to you HBendor that your unexplained conclusion that the majority of Palestinians are relatively recent immigrants into 'Palestine', is not even remotely justified by the history which you provided above. For 'majority' to apply you would have to show that over 200 000 immigrants entered the southern Levant in the 19th century. Not even the most extravagantly ample interpretation of your post can show even a quarter of this.

    I have no intentions of duplicating the detailed reasoning provided on this forum before, so will simply quote the Wiki summary from the two foremost authorities [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine]:


    So sorry .... the sum of evidence does not support your claim. Far more likely is that the Palestinians are descendants of converts from Jewry to Christianity and then to Islam and are therefore genetically the lineage of the ancestral occupiers of the land who have been in the southern Levant since the days before even Canaan - i.e. many millennia. That their DNA is all but indistinguishable from the Mizrahi Jews puts the seal on this interpretation in my view, as you have been previously shown on this forum.
     
  17. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    You say tomato, I say toma-a-a-to... we disagree.
    I want you to know then at the time of paper submission, a humongous amount of research time was put in.

    Thanks for reading
    .
     
  18. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the issue goes further than tomatoes. And I can see that you put a lot of effort into compiling that information.

    But after having done that you left a huge gap ... namely to show how your data indicate that well over 200 000 people immigrated to Palestine. Without this your original claim that the Palestinians are mainly immigrants does zip to refute Bachi and McCarthy's conclusions.

    So tomatoes notwithstanding, the fact that the Palestinians are the ancestors of the Jews and later Christian converts of the Roman period remains unsullied. They belong there. They always have. All that you have shown is that there was some subordinate immigration. I have never disputed that, nor did Bachi, McCarthy or Scholch.
     
  19. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Again badmouthing Israel from the confortable armchair... makes you a general that lost his stars.

    Sadat came to Jerusalem, made a speech in the Knesset, made peace with Israel and returned home to be machine gunned by his lovely people.
    Sir you are out of order...

    In your signature and for the second time Ben Gurion was repeating what the Arab squatters were saying in other words pulling a fast one... and you with all your savee has fallen for it.
     
  20. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    HBendor, do you have any idea how bad it looks for your sense of reality to interpret refuting the fact that Palestinians are mainly immigrants with bad-mouthing Israel? Your slip is seriously showing.

    Debate Summary:
    # You have been found unable to prove that in the 19th century over 200 000 citizens of Palestine were immigrants from surrounding countries. On the contrary, your own evidence shows nothing even remotely close to those numbers.
    # You have been unable to provide any evidence to refute the fact that Palestinian DNA is all but indistinguishable from that of Mizrahi Jews
    # Likewise you have been unable to refute that this genetic evidence provides ample support for the counter-claim that the Palestinians are the ancestors of Roman Jews who did not take part in the diaspora.

    Live with it HBendor - the Palestinians are mainly Roman Palestine Jews who stayed at home and underwent two major religious (and cultural) conversions. They are therefore the true ancestral residents of Palestine/Israel, and not the Jewish 'gypsies' from northern Europe who now claim a 'superior' right.

    MYTH BUSTED!!!
     

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