An Open Letter from mainly Leftist) Intellectuals on US/Russian Relations

This is not dodge ball in the lib public schools where every child must be treated the same

North korea is a rogue nation that the US will not allow to threaten other nations including America with nuclear weapons

 

I never cease to be amazed by your intellectual contortions, denial of fact and anti american bullshit.

Realpolitik isn't pretty. American Dominance was obtained by being the strongest, the most committed to the values of democracy and rule of law. It was achieved by hard work and sacrifice of its people, dedicated to the founding principles of the greatest nation in human history.

Your russian apologetics are laughable. I'm sure some of your comrades believe such bullshit, but Russia under its KBG created klepocrat IS imperialistic. Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, Syria are active instances of that imperialism, and the russian efforts to disrupt and divide is ON GOING in many neighboring former Soviet republics. Those are facts that even you can't deny - oh wait, you watched RT so you can proffer ridiculously ineffective excuses and outright lies.

 

I just listened to a debate between greenwald and another guy(author) and you get to see the two sides clearly in regards to the russian hysteria and irresponsibility and intelligence(greewald) and responsibility. And it mirrors what we see on this forum, the two sides. I have always been on the side of greenwald, even before I even knew that he shared beliefs and opinions on this issue. Greenwald calls the current hysteria, what it is, and the other feller sounds exactly as irrational and hate driven towards trump as any other hillary democrat and neocon from both parties.

It is worth listening to, even for the hysterical and irresponsible that will dislike greenwald for being reasonable, fact based and responsible. I know it will not change any minds, but if an objective mind listens to the arguments, I have no doubt who they will see as the least biased, and that will be greenwald. And far more responsible than his counterpart here. Comes from Democracy Now, and I doubt you will hear this debate in MSM, who will hardly ever give both sides of an issue, a story. Kudos to DN for doing this.



I have to wonder if people like you see here on this forum, and the guy greenwald is debating actually believe what they say and write? Or if they are just being intellectually dishonest for partisan and hate driven reasons? I would be astounded to believe that these people actually believe what their own mouths are saying or their fingers are typing. I don't think our reality and the facts of our reality are on the side of these people. And they have to willfully choose to ignore what can be mined as public information. For so much of what they believe can be disputed by historical fact and the information that we have about how gov'ts operate, and what intel has been guilty of in the past, and the special interests affecting gov't.

Today, JFK would have been hamstrung to even talk to the dictator of the old USSR in regards to the cuban missile crisis. If he had beat hillary and russians had a presence in social media.

 

I don't disagree with one word you have said about Trump.

But Nixon shows that someone of bad character can do the right thing.

I'm NOT saying Trump is 'doing the right thing' with respect to Russia -- I have no idea what he's doing. My concern is that a large section of the American public -- the majority who voted against the guy -- is now going to reflexively associate "doing the right thing" with an aggressive attitude towards Russia, and not just out of reflexive Trump-revulsion, but because, for people on the Left, it probably feels good to be able to be the pro-war pro-American pro-military pro-CIA/FBI side for a change.

Now ... an aggressive attitude towards Russia may or may not be justified. (I don't think it is, but it's a perfectly reasonable position.. it was certainly the right attitude to take towards Hitler and Tojo in the late 30s.) But we need to have a national debate on it ... impossible now, of course, but Trump will not be President forever.

 

Exactly

Knee-jerk trump haters want to goad America into a war with russia

And then blame it on trump

 

Redundant. Intellectuals would never fall under Trump's spell of partisan stupidity, so of course intellectuals are going to be considered "leftists" by Cult 45 members.

 

Again you want to make this all about partisanship and not patriotism.

The only other president in recent memory that "retreated" from a direct military attack was Reagan in Lebannon.

Russia is not the friend of America in any way. It is an adversary run by a creature of the KGB. If it wasn't for its nukes, they' be just another second tier player. Hell their gdp is less than Canada's and their military budget is a 10th of America's. Yet they are getting away with all kinds of murder and mayhem including directly attacking the United States.

Discussion about the AMERICAN WORLD ORDER and how to peaceably maintain it? Yep great topic for debate. But not in contemporary America. Too many partisans who can't see beyond their own noses.

 

Knee-jerk “intellectuals” are partisan anti-trumpsters

Exactly what you falsely accuse trump voters of but in reverse

 

You're projecting your own faults onto them, kind of like what Creationists do with evolutionary biologists when the former accuse the latter of embracing evolution on religious terms.

 

I have no idea what yoy are trying to say and I doubt if you do either

The anti trumpsters are rabid and very predictable

 

For decades, it was the Right who sought to short-cut debate about foreign policy, by turning it into a "debate" about patriotism. If you thought going into Vietnam was a bad idea, you were unpatriotic. If you thought attacking Cuba was a bad idea, you were unpatriotic. If you thought invading Iraq was a bad idea, you were unpatriotic.

This was never a good argument when my side used it, and it's no better when liberals use it.

Now ... if you want to say Trump is effectively a traitor, as well as being a Bad Man ... fine, that's an argument. If an American President is illegitimately beholden to anyone -- the Queen of England, the Sultan of Swat, whoever ... then this is something that needs the widest possible investigation.

But we must uncouple our policy towards Russia from whatever Mr Trump has done.

An analogy: President Roosevelt did everything he could to get the US into World War Two. The American people were reluctant to get involved in overseas wars, but FDR realized that we had no choice -- if the Germans and Japanese had beaten the British and Russians and Chinese, we would eventually be in a war, under very unfavorable circumstances.

Now ... if, decades later, it came out that FDR was heavily influenced by secret sympathy for the USSR, or even being blackmailed by them -- something of which some rightwingers always accused him -- that would be a startling find, and would certainly make us revise our judgement about his presidency and his character.

But ... it wouldn't for a second make us revise our judgement that getting the US into the war and coming to the aid of Hitler's enemies was a good thing.

 

Not for many decades. Need I remind you:

Invasion of Serbia during a civil war - illegal.
Invasion of Iraq - illegal.
Invasion and bombing of Libya - illegal.
Invasion and bombing in Syria - illegal.​

The founding principles came from the Christian moral foundation of the signatories. Sorry, it's gone.

You are funny! But that's the satanic Saul Alinsky way. Accuse others of doing what we are doing so as to confuse people. So we invade, create animosities in nations for regime changes and civil wars, bomb and kill civilians no end, but that's okay. We will blame Russia, and by convincing others our conscience will be clear - you wish! Nor will it free you from the consequences of those actions.

Just a reminder!

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The CPUSA was dedicated to supporting the USSR. It is easier to justify FBI infiltration and interference with CPUSA, than
its infiltration of the Anti-Soviet SWP.

"The Justice Department entered the overt campaign against subversives in 1949. The top leadership of the Communist party was prosecuted under the Smith Act, which punished advocacy and the teaching of Communist doctrine. FBI investigations laid the basis for the prosecutions, and between 1949 and 1956, 104 members of the party were tried and convicted. The judiciary sanctioned the campaign in 1951 when the Supreme Court upheld the Smith Act convictions in the Dennis case on the grounds that Communist "speech" had to be distinguished from other political advocacy because those who advocated the doctrine were part of an international movement. Justice Felix Frankfurter went so far as to take "judicial notice" of this "highly organized conspiracy" in rendering his decision for the Court."
The Lawless State, The crimes of the U.S. Inteligence Agencies, by Morton Halperin, Jerry Berman, Robert Borosage, Christine Marwick, Penguin Books, 1976.
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/NSA/Lawless_State.html,

Have never seen any proof that the CIA infiltrated the CP but it would not surprise me if they did.

 

The FBI helping to run the SWP.

"When the FBI could not find significant "subversive" influence, the bureau abandoned all pretense that its intelligence was directed only at organizations under the control or influence of a foreign power or dedicated to "violence." The Socialist Workers party (SWP) was placed under heavy surveillance even through the bureau conceded it was "home grown tomatoes" and in active opposition to the Communist party. The bureau took aim at the SWP because it espoused the "revolutionary principles of Marx, Lenin, and Engles (sic) as interpreted by Leon Trotsky" by "running candidates for public office." The surveillance of Martin Luther King, Jr., as we have seen, was ostensibly to prevent "the rise of a 'messiah' who could unify and electrify the . . . black . . . movement," although King's criticism of the bureau may well have been the real reason."
The Lawless State, The crimes of the U.S. Inteligence Agencies, by Morton Halperin, Jerry Berman, Robert Borosage, Christine Marwick, Penguin Books, 1976.
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/NSA/Lawless_State.html

 

And I think you are right. Not sure if it is on the level of QM though. ha ha. But what greatly clouds and complicates these modern times, in order to make some sense of it, are the efforts to intentionally cloud up the perception of our reality, to mold opinion, when such an opinion does not reflect reality and truth in regards to it. There are nefarious forces involved whether it be an agenda driven intel, who also operate in their own burocratic self interests, along with the injection of partisan politics into those agencies, as well as the intent to corrupt the perception of reality driven by nothing more than the power struggle between two parties, and partisanship, which has been highly seasoned with the base side of human nature, i.e personal hatred of a president who beat an unbeatable hillary clinton. These are not all of the factors of forces involved, but some of the more important ones, IMO.

That we have some responsible people left of center, as evidenced by the people who signed this open letter, is encouraging, and yet I think in today's world there are just too few of them. And this is also indicative of what the lefty Thomas Frank has written about and spoken about in his book, Listen Liberal where he goes into what ever happened to the Party of the People, the Democratic Party that have become just another party of the big banking and big corporate interests, as the GOP has always been in my life. As well as becoming filled with neocons, along with the GOP.

People on the left and the right have spoken out about the insanely irresponsible behavior coming from the establishment of both parties, when it comes to russia. I recall when Reagan was blasted as treasonous for wanting to work with the leader of the old USSR, but he was blasted by the Right neocons, the war mongers, the hawks and chicken hawks alike.

It is astounding that some of the insanely irresponsible have likened russian meddling via social media to another Pearl Harbor, when this is something, meddling, that we have done as well as russia for many decades. Even obama basically said as much as it was happening on his watch, but suddenly once trump beat hillary, it became another pearl harbor? Politically driven as well as being driven by the neocon faction within DC including those in intel. If one only knows history, and keeps up with revelations in regards to how intel has been used by both parties, in order to justify actions, this current russian hysteria is so transparent, and an agenda of those pushing it becomes self evident. There is really nothing new when it comes to russia and wanting to create disorder within america, nor in regards to america and what we have done in regards to russia for decades. And yet some people want to convince us that this isn't the same old hat we have always seen, and somehow this rises to another pearl harbor? Of course this is not supported by facts nor history, and yet they have been able to convince far too many americans of this ruse, this attack, politically driven, to use to win the next election.

And so that group of lefties that signed that letter are seeing what should be obvious, the politics involved, and the astounding danger that these highly irresponsible partisans and neocons have created. But when MSM does not practice real journalism, as they lack standards, as well as intellectual honesty and integrity, and will only push one side of a story or issue, this greatly complicates things, as they refuse to do their jobs, the job of a Free Press. I see little more than an propaganda apparatus, regardless of what drives it. And if you want to make reality hard to discern, well, MSM and others are working hard to do this that. They should be given a medal by the CIA for being so good in being purveyors of propaganda, and for not exercising genuine journalism that has a rule set to conduct business with.

In case you never knew what journalism looks like, here is an example, not from MSM of course, but from Democracy Now, where a real journalist, greenwald gives the other side of the story, other than the one being promoted by MSM, in a debate with another lefty, who has bought into the disinfo and perhaps even lies, given to us by MSM and the US gov't. You would never see this debate in MSM, but would have to use an alternative news source, in order to get both sides of the story, and where people are given enough time to talk about a topic.

Perhaps MSM will give greenwald enough time to show us what journalism is supposed to look and sound like? I will not hold my breath. And neither should you.

 

Guess what? Its those "intellectuals" that helped make america great. You think a blue collar worker could have invented the internet? Or the microchip? Or argue in the Supreme Court? Or a stealth bomber? or a satellite surveillance network, or gps?


But I get that you can only dismiss the criticism of trump's dreadful performance because there isn't any sane rational answer why the Commander in Chief bent over in front of the guy who's military attacked the very foundation of America.

Yep. Pro trump all the way. Who knew making america great again meant arse licking enemies and trashing allies.

Bet he made you proud today.

PS. You should read up on Dunning kruger. Perhaps you'll begin to know stuff that you don't know you don't know.

 

I'm pointing out the obvious hypocrisy of the Left

Noam Chomsky signed the letter, he absolutely hates Trump. Yet he signs a letter that calls for doing exactly what Trump is doing. I wonder if the signatories see that obvious fact.

 

Oh, illegal? says who? ​

THE CONSTITUTION. That's the manifestation of the founding principles of the nation. Didn't you learn that in kindergarten?

Oh look the false equivalency "arrogant dismissal" ploy, bringing up a community organizer portrayed as Satan. Can you be any more tactically transparent or intellectually bankrupt?

Yes, America does have a role in maintaining its world order.


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Thank you for the reminder of the price in blood and treasure necessary to crush murdering dictators ( fascist, dynastic cultist or klepto nationalist). America didn't become the greatest nation in human history by being the appeasing weaselly liar currently representing her interests.

 

The Make America Great intellectuals have long since passed away

Intellectuals today hate America and all its greatness

 

Wrong. Read the actual KGB archives, the first hand sources, of which Mitrochin provided a large amount. The green party and the communist party and the socialist party, as well as many leftist movements, were manipulated and even orchestrated by the Soviets.

 

But we still have people who are left of center that understand and can discern reality, when it comes to the modern liberals and the democratic party. Like Thomas Frank...



He has been taking on the DP who once was the People's Party, and revealing what they have become, along with their totally clueless and the dems who despise the people that the DP once stood up for and represented.

The most valid critiques of the DP comes from democrats who have witnessed the treason upon working americans, and who understand what has happened and why it has happened. That MSM will hardly ever talk to them is typical, given what MSM is. These people like Frank are blacked out, primarily, and that is what journalism looks like today. And this journalism is what feeds the modern democrats here on this forum.

The DP along with the GOP are anti working american, and anti middle class, unless you are in the professional upper middle class. Working americans, and the first two parts of the middle class are deplorables today. And the modern democrat voter is part and parcel of this treason.

 

Well .... here's the thing. The US has had a remarkably durable political system. And today is pretty much like yesterday, and tomorrow will probably be pretty much like today. So everyone tends to do linear extrapolation and think that things can never change.

But that's not true. The Republican base has just destroyed the old Republican Party. How I wish someone like Trump had not been the instrument of this, but we must play the hand life deals us. The Democratic base is getting restless. Right now they're focussed on getting a Norwegian welfare state in America but at some point the foreign policy question will be posed.

We may see a great realignment in American politics. Right now a lot of people on the Left are enjoying doing what the Right did to them for decades, attack their 'patriotism' when they propose a non-belligerent foreign policy. But that will pass. Trump will be gone at some point, and then we have a much better chance of getting rational discussion about our foreign policy.

We face a lot of dangers: Leftist identity politics may ignite a similar response in the white working class, which would be disaster.

All we can do is to try to get the Right to see sense, and hope the kind of people who signed that Open Letter can do the same on the Left.

 

What a crock. If that is what you see when you look up, I suggest you get a stronger pair of binoculars.

 

The problem here is quite simple really. It's becoming clearer every day that this attack on us was largely facilitated and led by our own Commander in Chief.

It's very much as if we not only let Kim Philby off but promoted him to be President. How anybody who has been alive the past 2 years and become as familiar as we are with Trump could have any doubt that he would wholeheartedly agree with any any opportunity to do this kind of thing given the chance truly boggles the mind and strains credulity at the extent of self delusion necessary to believe this.

We are going to have a real problem winning this war as long as our foremost general is not only working for the other side but got into his position mainly through their agency