Are there logical fallacies in Christianity?

Discussion in 'Debates & Contests' started by usfan, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    I have been challenged to a debate, over Christianity. Since some of the threads i have started have been specifically on Christianity, i propose a debate, here. We can post a few premises, or theses, and debate the topic in a rational and intelligent manner.

    Here was the challenge, from another thread:
    Of course, this is not limited to @Distraff or me. Anyone is free to chime in.

    There is a lot of groundwork to be laid, in a logical debate such as this, and i hope it is obvious:
    1. Be civil. This is a logical debate. Facts, reasoning, history.. not,
    2. Fallacies. Avoid them. Straw men, authority, ad hominem, and many other logical fallacies only signal defeat for the user.
    3. Unbased assertions are not logical victories, regardless of how strongly the asserter believes them. Every fact, must be established, and every assumption detailed.

    The OP is the formal debate, which should generate many sub topics.

    Regarding 'facts':
    • Empirical
    • Historical
    • Implied
    • Logical conclusion
    I look forward to a rational, intelligent debate on this subject.
     
  2. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    For disclosure and information, here are ALL of the Christianity specific threads i have started, in this forum:
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/christianity-a-summary.530362/

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/the-bible.542830/

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/lies-and-false-narratives-of-christianity.540446/

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...anks-for-the-gift-of-american-freedom.337005/

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/what-is-christian.451139/

    Of the hundreds of threads i have started, these are the only Christianity specific i could find. Most are philosophical, scientific, political, or etc. I generally prefer to not debate religious beliefs, as they are passionately felt, and generate more heat than light.
     
  3. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I am confident I can refute any point you bring forward. I look forward to hearing them. Good luck.
     
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  4. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    I am taking the position that there are NO LOGICAL, historical, or empirical flaws or fallacies in the Christian worldview.

    I will defend historical Christianity, based on the biblical NT manuscripts. I will not defend offshoots, departures, sects, caricatures, or extra-biblical traditions.

    My premise is that Christianity is a logical conclusion, from the facts of history, and the experiences of the followers of this worldview. It is not, 'blind faith!', or an irrational leap into the philosophical darkness.

    Here are some false narratives and caricatures from another thread:
     
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  5. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    My premise is broad. And specific charges of 'error!' or 'fallacy' will have to be addressed individually.

    My stance is there are NO FACTUAL FLAWS, in the historical Christian worldview. Any charges of 'error!' will have to be substantiated.
     
  6. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hitler was a Christian, he was baptised as a Catholic, never renounced his faith and was never ex-communicated.
     
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  7. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    From another thread, i listed a few false narratives, that i have heard used to smear Christianity. I'll re-list them here, to springboard any factual debate. Each of these can be a subpoint, to support the position taken.

    1. Christianity is responsible for most of the atrocities of humanity.
    False.
    Human greed, the lust for power, and man made institutions are at the root of man's inhumanity to man, not Christian ideology, which teaches the exact opposite.
    2. The bible is full of errors.
    False.
    No historical accounts recorded in the biblical manuscripts have been disproved or refuted by evidence.
    3. The bible has changed many times.
    False.
    The early church fathers quoted every passage in the new testament, and plenty from the old. There is no substantive disagreement with our current translations. All the historical manuscripts have lots of corroboration from other documents. The biblical manuscripts have a long history of scholarship and textual criticism by a continuous line of biblical scholars, translators, and historians.
    4. Hitler was a Christian.
    False.
    Hitler despised Christianity, and esteemed Islam. He was a chameleon, manipulating people for his agenda. He did not follow or esteem the teachings of Jesus.
    5. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.
    False.
    Christianity has provided the basis for enlightenment thought, freedom of conscience, human equality, and the natural rights of Man.
    6. The bible can be translated in many ways, and can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.
    False.
    There is a scholarly, exegetical intent of the words used in the biblical manuscripts. Scholars may differ in some of the nuances in translation, but the source is clear and historically accurate. Individuals might apply personal meanings from a passage, but that does not override the original intent of the author.
    7. Christianity demands a political theocracy, mandating Christian values as law.
    False.
    That is the agenda of Marxism and Islam. Historical Christianity is not involved with the secular state, and has always been contrary to the mandates from despots. Since the reformation, separation of church and state has been a constant theme.
    8. Christianity is an ideology of oppression, mandating conformity and submission to elites.
    False.
    Christianity has never been a good fit with man's institutions. It has constantly rebelled against the status quo, and openly defied human authority and power.
    9. Christianity is anti science.
    False.
    Many early scientists were Christians, looking to see 'what God hath wrought'.
    10. Christianity is anti education.
    False.
    Almost all older universities have Christian principles in their mission statement.
    11. Christianity is bigoted and racist.
    False.
    Christians led the abolition movements. Human equality is a basic principle of Christianity. It is anti elitist, unlike the institutions of the world.
     
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  8. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And in the other thread this was debunked, assertions without facts!
    Was Hitler baptised?
    Was Hitler Excommunicated?
    Did Hitler renounce his faith?
    Answer those questions.
     
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  9. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    1. Hitler's own words belied this assertion.
    2. An aberrant claimant does not smear the whole ideology, even if it were true, which it is not. 'Some, therefore all,' fallacy.
    3. Observing religious rites or liturgies does not define Christianity. Following Christ and His teachings, does.
    4. Claiming victory in a previous 'debate', with no evidence, is a fallacy.
    5. 'Hitler!' is a pathetic stereotype, to discredit by association, when there are no facts or arguments.

    You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness? ~Adolf Hitler

    I can imagine people being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mohammed, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians! In your lifetime, you used to hear the music of Richard Wagner. After your death, it will be nothing but hallelujahs, the waving of palms, children of an age for the feeding bottle, and hoary old men. The man of the isles pays homage to the forces of nature. But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery. ~Adolf Hitler

    Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers -already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity! -then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism [Islam], that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so. ~Adolf Hitler


    My rebuttal stands, unrefuted:

    4. Hitler was a Christian.
    False.
    Hitler despised Christianity, and esteemed Islam. He was a chameleon, manipulating people for his agenda. He did not follow or esteem the teachings of Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  10. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that the first 'argument!' presented here is the hitler fallacy..
    aka,
    Argumentum ad Nazium
    Reductio ad Hitlerum

    http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnazium.html

    So the reader is expected to accept reasoning that since 'Hitler!' was a 'Christian!' (an unproved assertion), all of Christianity is defiled and debunked. Guilt by association, when the association is dubious at best.

    The absurdity of this argument should be plainly obvious. I had hoped for more challenging arguments, than 'Hitler!'
     
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  11. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And there you go! You have not answered any of the three questions I posed to you but make outrageous claims. The absurdity of your argument is that you were the one to bring up Hitler. Now stop the theatrical deflection and answer the questions pr

    Was Hitler baptised?
    Was Hitler Excommunicated?
    Did Hitler renounce his faith?
    Answer those questions.
     
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  12. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Please show your source, this is attributed to Adolf Hitler, stop with the slight of hand and SHOW YOUR SOURCES!
     
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  13. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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  14. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, those are from Albert Speer in his 1969 book, 'Inside the Third Reich.'

    I can confirm that if it is important to your argument, but it feels like 'busy work!' deflection.
     
  15. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No all you had to do was show the source you cut and pasted them from as per forum rules! Why you did not we can only speculate on!
     
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  16. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Actually I and many other posters on this forum have refuted your arguments for Christianity really easily. ..
    give me your #1 strongest argument for Christianity, and I will very easily take it apart. ..
    I am super confident I can refute any Christian argument.

    The premise is the OP. My stance was delineated here:
    I am taking the position that there are NO LOGICAL, historical, or empirical flaws or fallacies in the Christian worldview.

    The debate is on! I look forward to attempts to refute my arguments and take me apart! ;)

     
  17. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    I cut and pasted them from my own quote collection. I verify them before attributing them. I am always happy to note the source, if there is a question. Are you disputing that Hitler said these things?

    This still is a deflective tactic, to distract from the topic.
     
  18. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Let me summarize, to now:

    Are there logical fallacies in Christianity?

    Yes! Hitler!

    Evidently, 'Hitler!' proves that Christianity is invalid, as a worldview. All Christians should abandon their faith, because the debaters against the Christian perspective think 'Hitler!' has refuted any validity of Jesus's words. It took nearly 2000 years, but now it is settled, by the searing logic that debunks the Christian worldview.
    :roll:

    If this is 'Taking you apart!', i have little to worry about. Are you guys sure you want to do this? A formal debate format does not help the cause for those used to heckling, ridicule, and fallacies. I will let it go, if you wish, and the thread can fade normally. I don't see how or why you would wish to continue...
     
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  19. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    ..not a strong rebuttal, but this bit from wiki refutes the 'Hitler was a Christian!' point:

    Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic.[1] In light of evidence such as his fierce criticism and vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,[2] numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition,[1] and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity.[1] Historian Laurence Rees found no evidence that "Hitler, in his personal life, ever expressed belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church".[3] Ernst Hanfstaengl, a friend from his early days in politics, says Hitler "was to all intents and purposes an atheist by the time I got to know him".

    Anyone can look up the footnotes on wiki..
     
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  20. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Donor

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    One of my favorite fallacies about Christians is that "they are supposed to be perfect and sinless, and if they aren't, it demonstrates all Christianity is false" when, in fact, we are Christians because we acknowledge we are neither perfect or sinless but, in fact, have means to be forgiven of our sins.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  21. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Donor

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    If Hitler was a Christian.. he wasn't very good at it.
     
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  22. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Good point.

    ..though, the debate is pretty one sided if we have to present the opposing side, too. ;)
     
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  23. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    There must have been a bit of miscommunication. I was hoping for some evidence for Christianity. My claim was that any arguments for Christianity can be refuted easily. A lack of logical fallacies in Christianity doesn't mean its arguments are strong. Another issue is that Christians will often reinterpret verses that appear to be fallacious, and the bible is famous for vagueness and numerous interpretations.

    Let me give you an example. One question is why does it make sense for people who have never heard of Christianity to go to hell? You may try to dispute that non-believers go to hell, but the bible is very clear that only through Christ shall you be saved. But I guess you could claim that maybe people have a chance of changing their ways and being saved after they die, or that this verse only applies to people who have actively rejected Christ, or that it is through works not faith that people are saved. So there are always ways of adding your own spin to the bible to get yourself out of a logical problem.

    Top ways to get out of a logical error:
    1: Go back to the Greek/Hebrew and debate the translation of the error.
    2: Use vageness in the grammar and sentences to debate the error.
    3: Find a conflicting verse and use that to re-interpret the verse in question.
    4: Claim that the passage is metaphorical.
    5: State that the error is on account of some typos or misunderstandings of the writers not on God himself.
    5: Since God is all-powerful, he can clean up any problems the verse has.
    6: State that the verse isn't wrong and that the ways of God are mysterious.
    7: Argue that the verse was once necessary but has expired today or was only meant for a limited audience only at that time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  24. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Really, he and his fellow christians killed six million Jews and that is what the christians wanted. Now they want the Jews to return Palestine so their God can kill them.
     
  25. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not one sided at all you simply replied you do not know and it was irrelevant!
    First you claimed that Hitler was not a Christian then you quote un sourced material, then state that whether Hitler was baptised, excommunicated or renounced his faith was irrelevant! Then you try to suggest he was an adherent to another religion because you do not want your religion tarnished, absolutely hirlarious to watch what you do!

    Was Hitler a Christian?

    Definition of Christian.

    Christian


    ADJECTIVE
    • Relating to or professing Christianity or its teachings.
    NOUN
    Was Hitler Baptised?
    Yes.
    Adolf Hitler (1889–1945) was born on April 20, 1889, in the Upper Austrian border town Braunau am Inn, located approximately 65 miles east of Munich and nearly 30 miles north of Salzburg. He was baptized a Catholic.
    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/adolf-hitler-early-years-1889-1913

    Was he excommunicated?
    No, there is no record he was ever excommunicated, indeed his book Mien Kampf was not even placed on the Catholic list of books considered heretical by the Catholic Church despite it being one of the largest selling books at the time.

    Did he ever renounce his faith?

    "We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...."
    - Article 20 of the program of the German Workers' Party (later named the National Socialist German Workers' Party, NSDAP)

    I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.
    - Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941

    I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.
    - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 1

    ....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.
    - Adolf Hitler (following the position of Martin Luther), Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

    My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. ...
    - Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922

    By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values. The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society. ...
    - Adolf Hitler, speech before the Reichstag, March 23, 1933, just before the Enabling Act is passed.

    Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years.
    - Adolf Hitler, quoted in: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872


    https://www.thoughtco.com/adolf-hitler-on-christianity-quotes-248190

    No he never renounced his faith. Since his death there have been many people who have tried to suggest he was anti christian, principle amongst the being Albert Speer who managed to lie enough at Nuremberg to avoid the hanging he so richly deserved, he then cultivated a persona of the "good Nazi".

    I simply showed that you continue to make claims that you have been shown to be arguable at best and simply downright false. If you can show that Hitler was not baptised, that he was excommunicated or that he renounced his Christian faith do so with facts and sourced material.

    So much of what Hitler wrote still applies to the Christian right today, the SS wore "god with us" on their belt buckles, not far away from "in god we trust"!
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019

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