Ashkenazi Jews from 350 people, maybe Khazars?

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by Ronstar, Jun 24, 2015.

  1. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    http://www.haaretz.com/life/science-medicine/.premium-1.614893

    A model based on the genetic sequencing of 128 Ashkenazi Jews concludes that today’s Ashkenazim descend from the fusion of European and Middle-Eastern Jews during the medieval era, between 600 to 800 years ago.

    The math also indicates that today’s sprawling community of Ashkenazi Jews — there are more than 10 million around the world — derived from just 350 people or so. That previously postulated population bottleneck — a drastic reduction in population size — occurred between 25 to 32 generations ago, the scientists say.


    this might corrolate with the idea that the Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the Khazars, who it was proposed that their royal family converted to Judaism. And a royal family of 350 persons isn't too hard to fathom.
     
  2. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    350 Jews may indeed refer to the Khazar royal family
     
  3. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    as i said, there has been claims that the Ashkenazi Jews couldn't be descended from the Khazars, as most Khazars didn't convert to Judaism, just the royal familty did.

    well, if this 350 number is true, we might have just solved the puzzle.
     
  4. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

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    1. Genetics show no signs of Caucasian/Turik (Khazars) influence
    2. Genetics show mix of Semitic and European

    so no evidence of Khazar influence.
     
  5. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ummmmmm what the hell, Ronstar ?! You've chastised me for months for having this belief. What the hell !
     
  6. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    but i am posting data, you just posted beliefs simply based on skin color, which is an absurd way to make such an argument.

    - - - Updated - - -

    did they compare Ashkenazis to folks in Georgia, Kurdistan, Azerbaijan, Dagestan?
     
  7. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

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    Yes they did. Ashkenazis have Semitic genetics mixed with European. There is a group of Jews called the Gorksi Jews or Mountain Jews who might be the Khazars, as they live the Caucuses have similar language and culture to local peoples you mentioned.
     
  8. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hardly surprising since Islam is a religion, and does not make any claims to race or ethnicity! They also do not have the same attitude to racial superiority exhibited by some Jews. What is your point, or is it that you just cannot see any mention of Jews without a example of how you consider them better than Muslims?
     
  9. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was basing my opinions on things I have read. Now, if this does prove most Asheknazi Jews are not Middle Eastern but of Central Asian descent, it does mean that Ashkenazi Jews have no legal or genetic rights to Israel.
     
  10. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    to their extreme discredit, they only looked at the genes of 128 people.

    128 people, out of maybe 11 million Ashkenazi Jews.

    what a horrible sampling.
     
  11. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately for that argument, as I have said previously there is no genetic link between Ashkenazi and Central Asia.

    - - - Updated - - -

    There is more then one study btw, but do you have a genetic study that proves your position?
     
  12. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But if those 128 Ashkenazis were varied in location and yet they all shared these Khazar lineage, it's very important
     
  13. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Or the typical slaughter of Jews by other nations.
     
  14. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Hoosier you brought in a <very good point>... Maybe we should concentrate on why
    Israel is treated differently than the rest of the world and maybe we can get a cogent answer to that plaguing <hate>.

    Ten Ways Israel Is Treated Differently

    You don't have to be a pro-Israel activist to be troubled by the grotesquely unjust treatment of Israel.

    It's appalling to see how Israel is treated by a totally different standard than other countries in the international system. Of course, Israel deserves scrutiny, as does every other nation. But it also merits equal treatment – nothing more, nothing less.

    First, Israel is the only UN member state whose very right to exist is under constant challenge.

    Notwithstanding the fact that Israel embodies an age-old connection with the Jewish people as repeatedly cited in the most widely read book in the world, the Bible, that it was created based on the 1947 recommendation of the UN, and that it has been a member of the world body since 1949, there's a relentless chorus of nations, institutions, and individuals denying Israel's very political legitimacy.

    No one would dare question the right to exist of many other countries whose basis for legitimacy is infinitely more questionable than Israel's, including those that were created by brute force, occupation, or distant mapmakers. Just look around at how many nations fit those categories, including, by the way, quite a few Arab countries. Why, then, is it open hunting season only on Israel? Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that it's the only Jewish-majority country in the world?

    Second, Israel is the only UN member state that's been targeted for annihilation by another UN member state.

    Think about it. The leadership of Iran, together with Iran-funded proxies in Lebanon and Gaza, has repeatedly called for wiping Israel off the map. Is there any other country facing the threat of genocidal destruction?

    Third, Israel is the only nation whose capital city, Jerusalem, is not recognized by other nations.

    Imagine the absurdity of this. Foreign diplomats live in Tel Aviv while conducting virtually all their business in Jerusalem. Though no Western nation questions Israel's presence in the city's western half, where the prime minister's office, Knesset (Parliament), and Ministry of Foreign Affairs are located, there are no embassies there.

    In fact, look at listings of world cities, including places of birth in passports, and you'll see something striking – Paris, France; Tokyo, Japan; Pretoria, South Africa; Lima, Peru; and Jerusalem, sans country – orphaned, if you will.

    Fourth, the UN has two agencies dealing with refugees.

    One, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), focuses on all the world's refugee populations, save one. The other, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine (UNRWA), handles only the Palestinians.

    But the difference goes beyond two structures and two bureaucracies. In fact, they have two different mandates.

    UNHCR seeks to resettle refugees; UNRWA does not. When, in 1951, John Blanford, UNRWA's then-director, proposed resettling up to 250,000 refugees in nearby Arab countries, those countries were enraged and refused, leading to his departure. The message got through. No UN official since has pushed for resettlement.

    Moreover, the UNRWA and UNHCR definitions of a refugee differ markedly. Whereas the UNHCR targets only those who've actually fled their homelands, the UNRWA definition covers "the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948," without any generational limitations.

    Fifth, Israel is the only country that has won all its major wars for survival and self-defense, yet is confronted by defeated adversaries who have insisted on dictating the terms of peace.

    In doing so, ironically, they've found support from many countries who, victorious in war themselves, demanded – and, yes, got – border adjustments.

    Sixth, Israel is the only country in the world with a separate – and permanent – agenda item, #7, at the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council.

    No other member state, including serial human-rights violators like North Korea, Syria, Iran, and Sudan, gets its own agenda item. Only the sole liberal democracy in the Middle East is treated in this blatantly biased manner because that's the way it works – the bad guys circle the wagons to protect one another, and, at the same time, gang up on Israel, creating an automatic majority against it.

    Seventh, Israel is the only country condemned by name this year at the World Health Organization annual assembly as a "violator" of health rights.

    This canard takes place despite the fact that Israel provides world-class medical assistance to Syrians wounded in the country's civil war and Palestinians living in Hamas-ruled Gaza; has achieved one of the world's highest life expectancy rates for all its citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish alike; is among the very first medical responders to humanitarian crises wherever they may occur, from Haiti to Nepal; and is daily advancing the frontiers of medicine for everyone, something that can't be said for too many other nations.

    Eighth, Israel is the only country that's the daily target of three UN bodies established and staffed solely for the purpose of advancing the Palestinian cause and bashing Israel – the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People; the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human Rights of the Palestinian People; and the Division for Palestinian Rights in the UN's Department of Political Affairs.

    Ninth, Israel is the only country annually targeted by up to 20 UN General Assembly resolutions and countless measures in other UN bodies, such as the Human Rights Council.

    Indeed, astonishingly, each year, Israel is on the receiving end of more such efforts than the other 192 UN member states combined. No one can seriously argue that this is remotely warranted, but it's a reality because in every UN body, except the Security Council where each of the five permanent members has a veto, it's all about majority voting.

    When close to two-thirds of the world's nations today belong to the Non-Aligned Movement, and when they elect a country like Iran as its chair, with Venezuela on deck, that just about says it all.

    And tenth, Israel is the only country targeted by the BDS (boycott, divestment, and sanctions) movement.

    Has anyone seen any significant campus activity that takes aim at true human rights offenders, including some in Israel's neighborhood, who behead, forcibly convert, and expel Christians; drop chemically-laced barrel bombs on civilians; deny Palestinians full rights; and use capital punishment, including for minors, with abandon?

    Has any student group tried to prevent undergraduates from traveling to any country other than Israel, as was the case with a recent "pledge" circulated at UCLA?

    Has anyone seen any flotillas or flytillas organized by European far-left groups that don't involve an anti-Israel angle?

    Has anyone seen movements for companies to pull out of any country other than Israel?

    Turkey, as but one example, has brazenly and unjustifiably occupied one-third of the island nation of Cyprus for 41 years, deployed an estimated 40,000 Turkish troops there, and transferred countless settlers from Anatolia, yet there's not a peep against Ankara from those who purport to act in the name of "justice" and against "occupation."

    Given political realities, tackling any of these instances of egregious double standards and blatant hypocrisy can be a daunting challenge. And, still worse, this list is not complete.

    The old advertisement proclaimed that you don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's Jewish rye bread. Well, surely, you don't have to be a pro-Israel activist to be troubled by the grotesquely unjust treatment of Israel. All it takes is a capacity for moral outrage that things like this are happening today.

    This article can be read online at: http://www.aish.com/jw/me/Ten-Ways-Israel-Is-Treated-Differently.html.

    ~Author Biography:

    David A. Harris is the Executive Director of the American Jewish Committee.
     
  15. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Israel has violated the 4th Geneva Conventions and refused to comply with many UNSC resolutions, in violation of the UN Charter, but faced no sanctions.

    Israel is constantly accused of war crimes, but not once faced the ICC.
     
  16. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I understand you think Israel is getting away with something but you never seem to address any of the other aspects of the situation or how many other human rights violations happen in the countries that surround Israel, or in fact, even one point of what you responded to.
     
  17. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

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    lol, why khazars ? the Muslims had leaders that were cruel to Jews as well at times, why not ME Jewish refugees mixing with Roman European Jews ? why the need to discredit the Jews ? lol
     
  18. Art_Allm

    Art_Allm Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    This only refers to the direct male line of some Jews, and this direct line represents only a tiny percentage of the total amount of genes and the total amount of ancestors.

    This diagram illustrates this very well:

    ydna.png

    About 70% of Russians who come to Israel stem from mixed families. They maybe had a Jewish grandmother.
    But these people are not accepted for genetic tests, the genetic tests are usually done with the Cohen clans, who are prohibited from marrying converts.

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/not-jewish-enough-to-marry-a-cohen-1.150715

    But Cohens are only 3% of Jewry, so it is idiotic to talk about all Jews on the basis of the Cohen genes.

    But even Cohens do not stem from the same person, and many non-Jews stem from the same male person Cohens stem from.

    Besides that, the Levis do not have any male oriental ancestry, though according to legends they and the Cohens stem from the same male.

    Besides that there is also a maternal line, and the founding mothers of different Jewish communities do not have any oriental genes.

    Besides the direct male and female lines, there are indirect lines, and if you look at the autosomal DNA (all ancestors, including indirect ancestors), you come to the conclusion that Ashkenazim stem from the region of the former Khazaria.

    EuroJewsHaploid.png

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.de/2012/08/ample-analysis-of-genetics-of-european.html
     
  19. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    The Khazars were big slavers... and they couldn't enslave other Jews.. Letters and the archeology indicate that more than the royal family converted.

    This is a pretty big website.

    http://www.khazaria.com/
     
  20. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

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    Its not a race issue, the ancient Judeans were not a homogenous nation any way, they constantly mixed with the nations around them, no one can find a "pure" Judean because there never was one,
    What does matter and what does define a nation is its culture, religion , binding history and I really cant think of another nation with a rich history as the Jews on every century and on any corner of the world.

    You and I could have about the same genetics and both of us could in theory originate from an ancient Judean yet only one of us kept the tradition and culture throu the ages, throu his parents and theirs and so on, only one of us can - according to conventional terms - be addressed as part of that nation.

    On personal level, I think its cool if I had barbarian Khazar part in me :) on national level I don't find it logical at all to address the entire Ashkenazi part to the Khazars, that would mean the entire Roman Greek Jewish community disappeared and there is nothing in history to suggest that, the opposite, there was a recorded increase in their numbers.

    And one last thing, the obsessive dealing around the Jews, Zionism, Israel etc', are defined by our enemies - not us, by your actions and your "criticism" you refine us as a nation and in a way immortal us, God bless.
     
  21. Art_Allm

    Art_Allm Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Fully agree with you, but Zionists claim that they are a race, and that there are "Jewish genes", which is nonsense.

    Here I disagree with you. There is no common for all Jews "Jewish culture" or common for all Jews "Jewish history".

    Different ethnic groups, that converted to Judaism, have a different culture and a different history.

    That is why in Europe Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews had different communities, even different cemeteries, and they never intermixed. They were two totally different ethnic group with totally different spoken languages, totally different cultures, and even different religions, though they both claimed to be "the chosen people".

    Today they still hate each others in Israel, they even still have segregated schools.

    Zionist try to create the "Jewish people", but many Jews refuse to participate in this experiment, they refuse to mix or even let their children to go to the same schools.

    And white Jews hate black African Jews, and white Jewish doctors even managed to reduce the fertility of black Jews in Israel.

    Can you imagine any ethnic group, behaving like that?



    That is another BS.
    The Russians, that migrated to Israel, did not preserve any Jewish traditions, only their supposed "Jewish blood" counts. They are white, and that is the reason why they are immediately accepted as Jews in Israel by the white Rabbis who are the once who decide who is a Jew.

    It is understandable that white Rabbis will not accept these Black Jews, who claim to be the descendants of Hebrews, as Jews, though they will accept any white Russian who claims that he had a Jewish grand-grand-grand-mother.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

    On the other hand, white doctors have reduced the fertility of black Jews in Israel to a minimum, and they get away with it. Nobody was punished for de facto committing a genocide against black Jews in Israel.


    Ashkenazi are a mixture of Slavs and Khazars, the Roman Greek influence can be neglected. Yes, these communities disappeared, most of their members just converted to Christianity.


    What Jews?

    You have to be more precise.

    Am I really "obsessed" with Ethiopian or any other Oriental Jews?

    :D

    No, of course not, because these Jews did not have any influence on European societies. The Ethiopian Jews lived their own life, they did not have any influence on what happened in Europe in the last couple of centuries.

    Today these poor Black Jews are literally genocided by white Jews in Israel, so I have only sympathy for these black Jews. They are innocent victims of white Zionists, they were fooled to migrate to Israel, and Zionists instigated hate against them and other oriental Jews to make them migrate to Israel.

    The same is true for Karaite Jews, the Chinese Jews and many other ethnic groups, that converted during the history to Judaism.

    I do not think that anybody would be "obsessed" with white Ashkenazi Jews, if they lived separately, like the Ethiopian Jews, and if they did not have any influence on the history of European countries.

    Can you get my drift?

    Most people in the West think of Ashkenazi, when they talk about Jews, and they forget about other Jews, like the Ethiopian Jews, who are not responsible for anything.

    How can Ethiopian Jews be responsible for the crimes of Bolsheviks or Banksters, if they are a totally different ethnic group with a totally different culture and history??

    So it is idiotic to talk about "Jews" in general, you have to differentiate.

    The term "white Ashkenazi Jewish Zionists" would be a better term, to describe the phenomenon.

    To talk about "Jews" in general would only mean to obfuscate the real problem.
     
  22. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    this is 100% false.

    Russians (or anyone else) with one Jewish grandparent are allowed to make Aliyah, but they are NOT considered Jews unless they have a Jewish mother or convert under Orthodox rules.
     
  23. Art_Allm

    Art_Allm Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    They are given the Israeli citizenship, though they have no Jewish traditions at all.

    These Black Hebrew Israelites, who practice Judaism, do not get Israeli citizenship.


    As we see, most Black Jews in Israel are denied the Israeli citizenship, and that because of the racism of white Rabbis and other white Jews, that control Israel.

    BTW, what do you mean with "Orthodox Conversion"?

    Most Jews, that live in Israel, say that they are atheists. How can somebody convert to any religion, and be an open atheists?

    Does that make any sense?

    :D
     
  24. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They have unearthed remains from Israel circa 2,000 years ago---and they look more European.

    There are genetic experts that can do DNA family and ethnic testing on mummies of ancient pharaohs---so these samples would be the proof in the pudding.

    http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...rael/the-only-ancient-jewish-hair-ever-found/

    Of course the samples would have to verified by independant (non- Jewish) labs to be believed.
     
  25. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Ashkenazi Jews are identified as Jewish individuals of Central or Eastern European ancestry and the 2014 study proved that Ashkenazi Jews are indeed 46-50% European. Ancient Jewish migrants from the Middle East interbred with native Europeans in Belgium around 21,000 years ago and the AJ gene pool is a genetic mixture of the ancestral European population and ancestral Middle Easterners. Judaism has a long history in Belgium, from the 1st century CE until today, and Belgium is an ancestral home of Ashkenazi Jews.

    [​IMG]
    Johansson's mother, Melanie Sloan, is of Ashkenazi Jewish descent.

     

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