Discussion in 'Middle East' started by Ronstar, Jun 24, 2015.
you said that before by the way, like 3 times and its still totally irrelevant.
To the extent there is any racial or ethnic aspect to Jewish identity, that is actually something the Jews may very well owe to the Persians! The story as I have gathered from the sources I have read, which isn't quite told the way it should be in any of the relevant cultures (not even in Iran, for reasons that may become apparent), is as follows: at the time of the Persian empire under Achaemenid dynasty (who ruled most of the ancient world), Jerusalem and the area known today as Palestine was somewhat unruly. There were different groups claiming to offer the right interpretation of Judaism and social and political reasons combined to make the area less than stable. Cyrus, of course, had freed the Jews from Babylonian captivity and those Jews who were freed by Cyrus were the ones Persian policy viewed favorably. To bring calm to the area, the Achaemenids send an emissary to the area named Ezra, who was Jewish. To strengthen the hands of the Jews who had been freed from captivity who, unlike the other Jewish communities in Jerusalem, had not mingled with non-Jews, one of the messages which Ezra brought with himself was that a real Jews was only someone who was born to a Jewish mother (there are Zoroastrian influences in this concept as well, the Persians at the time being mostly Zoroastrian) . That message immediately sidelined many of the non-Babylonian Jews and enabled those Jews which were more amenable to Persian rule to emerge with as stronger voice in Jerusalem. Moreover, to instill the appropriate respect for Persian rule, Ezra was required to propagate messages favorable to Persian rule. Hence, among these messages you could see Cyrus being exalted to a position that even Jewish prophets weren't accorded, with Cyrus being referred to as the "Lord anointed". Additional messages of this nature could be gleaned in passages that mentioned that the "laws of the Persians and the Medes, disobey them not". Anyway, an identity which was once given an ethnic dimension as an instrument of Persian imperial rule, and an ideology about return to Zion which was meant to further Persian imperial policy, ironically has become (at least among Israeli Jews, since the majority of American Jews actually hold views quite inconsistent with what AIPAC lobbies) the source of much of the danger Iran faces today. But if my account of the issue is correct, and I think it is, I am sure without the Persian intervention, a separate Jewish identity having a racial/ethnic component would not exist and, indeed, the whole history of Judaism and Jews would evolve quite differently than it did.
Its possible,but I think the Jews themselves need to get most credit about that because they had many opportunities to completely mix with other nations and lose their identity, they didn't because the core of the belief system is living according to the Torah, the return to Zion, the Messiah etc', all separates them, if the local rulers weren't as tolerant their identity might have been lost - or they would have migrated away as happened in other places.
But yea, Cyrus is regarded very favorably in Jewish lore, the East in general was very tolerant even in the time of religious zeal it was better than the West.
I really don't think Israel is any kind of threat on Iran today....we might sting a bit but Iran will hardly feel it. I don't think Iranians see us as a threat as much as Israelis see Iranians as a threat to them.
yes, the only so-called evidence of Khazar genetics, is a 2012 study that compared Ashkenazi Jews to Jews from Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan.
It used these Jews as genetic stand-ins for non-Jewish natives, which is pretty damn absurd considering the well-known genetic connection between all Jews around the world.
which has got nothing to do with Israel.
I did give attention to your writings. Gilos responded as I would have. What you say may very well be true...then again maybe not quite as depicted but yes the irony in what you say is there for sure.
We do know, that you trace Abraham back and eventually we get into the Zoroastrean faith and before that the same ancestors so much earlier then that who went on to find Hinduism, and other Eastern thoughts and religions.... I subscribe to the theory that no religion is original
and borrows from influences its creators obtained from their environments and upbringings and some of it was deliberate and some non deliberate.
Jews as a people I tell you what-I am loath to the way it was used by Nazis to define Jews as a race.
My idea of a Jew is pretty much what yours would be of a "Persian". A collective of people with origins to a rich previous history.
You are Persian as I am a Jew. Now today you might be called Iranian not Persian and some Jews, Israelis not just Jews, but our nationality is only part of what or who we are. I am not a Jewish Israeli I am Jewish Canadian. However I share with Jewish Israelis what you would share with Persians who are Canadian, Iranian, American.
We know where most Polish Jews came from, they came from Germany, and that's why they spoke Yiddish a German dialect adopted by Jews.
Indeed, if mosyt Ashkenazi Jews were actually descended from Khazars, this would be reflected in our language, foods, culture, etc.
However, we have ZERO Turkic cultural elements. Our language is 80% German nouns, verbs, and grammar.
yes, maybe some Khazars converted to Judaism and mixed with Jews from central europe, but all the cultural, lingustic, and genetic evidence says Ashkenazi Jews are from south central europe, NOT the Caucasus.
How did the Turkic title Kagan become a Jewish surname?
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There does seem to be slight evidence for Khazar mixture in Ashkenazi Jews, but not very much.
Kagan is a Khazar name.
but most Jewish names have nothing to do with the Khazars
The Khazars Convert To Judaism.
According to the Russian-Jewish scholar, Abraham Harcavy (Vilna, 1867) the
Khazars converted to Judaism in about 620 c.e. Other authorities put this
event more than a hundred years later. The conversion at first was more or
less a secret and was confined to the king and his co-ruling associate
prince and to the inner aristocracy. Later most of the Khazars-proper
appear to have converted along with some of the Alans and some of the other
subject peoples most of whom however remained pagan, christian, or moslem.
The conversion was also done in stages (Polak).. At first they accepted a
kind of monotheism with Hebraic-type ceremonies which perhaps in principle
is paralleled by the modern Noachide movement (?). Later they accepted
full-fledged Rabbinical Orthodoxy. The first Khazar king to accept Judaism
was named Bulan whose name means "unicorn" or "elk" (Altheim, GDH vol.1
p.239). The unicorn was an emblem known from the Sakae region east of the
Caspian Sea. It is also a symbol of Menasseh.
The conversion of the Khazars to Judaism was preceded by a Disputation
amongst members of different religions. The Jewish poet and philosopher
Yehuda HaLevi (1074-1141), in Spain, wrote a Classical work in defence of
Judaism using this Disputation as a framework. The book is called "The
The Khazars at one stage may have held some type of suzerainty over what is
now Hungary, Poland, and Austria.
The Khazars and The Vikings.
Around the 700s Viking "Varangians" began to penetrate the interior of
Russia. The Varangians were mainly Swedish though the term (in Russian
Chronicles) could also be used to encompass anybody from Scandinavia as
well as Englishman (E.B. 1955, "Russia", Vernadsky). Varangians were
confederated with the Khazars and were the Khazar entity referred to as the
Varach'an (Warathan) Huns. The Varangians were variously also referred to
as "Varegos", "Barragos", and "Variag" (Polak p.187, Koestler p.147,
Minorsky p.432). Their name is derived from the Hebrew "Beriah"
[pronounceable as "Veri-a-g"] which name was given to a son of Asher
(Genesis 46;17), a son of Ephraim (1-Chronicles 7;23), and a son of
Benjamin (1-Chronicles 8;16).
In ca.800 c.e. a group of Varangians appeared at the Byzantium court. They
called their king "Chakan" which title is considered to have been that of
the King of Khazaria (Vernadsky, "The Origins of Russia", p.244ff). The
title "Chakan" or "Cagan" was originally the Hebrew "COHEN" and means
"priest" or "officiate".
More information concerning the Khazars comes from a letter sent some time
between 954-961 to Ibn Hasdai who was the Jewish physician and foreign
minister to the muslim king of Cordoba in Spain. The letter is from a King
Joseph of Khazaria. There are two versions of this letter but both contain
important information from early sources. From the letter(s) we learn that:
King Joseph was the 13th king of Khazaria; Previously, in the time of the
11th monarch, King Benjamin, all the surrounding kings had been at war
against the Khazars except for the King of the Cossacks and the King of
By "King of the Cossacks" the Don Cossacks are intended. The Don
Cossacks were a mixed people amongst whom in historical times were families
who practised Judaic customs and some who converted to Judaism. These
individuals had the notion that they were descended from Dan son of Israel
after whom the Don River was named .
The Alans were a people who had lived to the north of the Caspian Sea then
moved to the Caucasus area and north of it. Previously in the time of
Attilla and before then (i.e. in the 400s c.e.) a section of the Alans had
gone westward. They settled in areas of Gaul especially in Brittany and
influenced Norman military tactics (Bachrach). There were also Alans
amongst the Allemans in Alsace and in Suebia. In addition, the name "Alan"
is found in Scotland both as a personal names and as the name of a Tribe in
the north. In "The Tribes" the Alans are traced to Elon son of Zebulon.
The letter continues to relate that the Alan monarch marched against the
enemies of the Khazars and routed them. The King of the Alans had rendered
assistance since "some of them observed the Torah of the Jews". King Joseph
himself was married to a daughter of the Alan ruler. Bar Hebraeus had
reported that the Khazars came from the east and settled in "the country of
the Alans now called Barsalia" meaning an area on the northern shores of
the Black Sea.
The Khazars proper were a small group who obtained a loose uncertain
control over many other nations. The Khazar power was probably always in
frequent fluctuation. The Varangians established themselves in and around
Kiev where they ruled over the natives. They local inhabitants said that
Kiev had been founded by Ku and two of his brothers. These were foreigners
(kinsmen of the Khazars) and ruled over the Polanians. The Polonian natives
of Kiev told the Varangians that originally "there were three
brothers...they built this town and perished. We are sitting [here] and pay
tribute to their kinsmen the Khazars....." This is interesting since
originally Kiev had been known as Sambat (according to Constantine
Porphyrogenitus) which name links it to the Lost Ten Tribes. The people of
Asgard (from whom descended many of the Scandinavians) had lived in this
area. The Varangians at first acknowledged Khazar suzerainty and as
mentioned it seems that the Khazar "Huns of Warathan" were Varangian. The
Varangians were either also known as the Rus or the Rus were another group
whom the Varangians absorbed and who became identified with them. In ca.
912-913 the Varangian Rus with Khazar connivance attacked muslim and
christian settlements on the shores of the Black sea. On the Varangians
returning from their raids they were attacked by a band of 150,000
non-Khazar muslim and christian subjects of the Khazar king. The attackers
were acting against the will of the Khazar ruler who tried to stop them and
sent a message to warn the Varangians against them. The Varangians lost
30,000 men in this encounter which meant the loss of 2/3 of their forces.
This incident is symptomatic of the Khazars weakening position. Their
kingdom had begun to disintegrate and they were overly dependent on
christian and muslim mercenaries. Their subjects were asserting themselves.
The Khazars were perhaps too liberally-disposed for that age and region.
In the meantime amongst the Varangians of Kiev christianity had been
spreading. The Varangians were intermarrying with the Slavs and Slavonic
elements were entering Varangian ranks as equals. Abraham Polak was a
foremost scholar of Khazar history. He wrote an authoritative work (in
Hebrew) about them and considered them essentially an offshoot of the
Goths. According to Polak the Scandinavian element amongst the Varangians
was basically pro-Khazar whereas the Slavonic one was not. The more
christian and Slavonicised the Varangians became the more distance they
kept from Khazar alliance. Saksin (Atil, the "Saxon" city) one of the
Khazar capitals was attacked by the Varangian-Rus in 962-963 and again by
the Turks in 965. After these attacks the steppes became dominated by
Turks and Mongolians. Khazaria was never the same after the Rus and Turkish
attacks but some degree of partial recovery may have been achieved.
Rubruques in the 1200s mentioned a "Civitas Saxorum" (i.e. City of the
Saxons) and is presumed to be referring to the Khazar capital of Saksin. A
German record says that in 1410 the Prince of Lithuania attacked lands by
the Caspian Sea, "In the place where, as it is known, live the Red Jews" .
The expression "Red Jews" is a term employed by medieval Jews and applied
to the Lost Tribes of Israel with whom the Khazars appear to have been
that's because they changed their names on conversion. Probably to hide their lineage.
that is a baseless lie.
What is ??
There's a good bit of information about the Turkic Khazars .. along with archeology and letters.
And below about the Khazars in Russia and the Ukraine
they are not the ancestors of the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews
Well, they express pride in their Jewish heritage..
all 100% of it
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as we should
I am very proud to be a Jew.
I am speaking of the Khazars.. with DNA studies.
Yes but no evidence that ashkenazi Jews are Khazar decendents. There is evidence that mountain Jews of Caucuses are though.
there are no DNA studies of Khazars, as they no longer exist
It was only when the Khazar Empire began to decline around 1,000 years ago that the Jewish converts headed west, into central Europe, coming into contact with German-speaking peoples.
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Did you bother with either website?
this genetic study is crap!!!!!
do you know who the Ashkenazi Jews were compared to, to prove Khazar ancestry?
Jews from Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan. Not to non-Jewish folks in the Caucasus.
so of couse they all had similar genetics!!!
Jews from all over the world share similaqr genetics, from Europe to North Africa to Asia to India.
has nothing to do with the Khazars.
try again, Margot.
Separate names with a comma.