Black Culture Pathology, What to do?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Moi621, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    OK, so Musk is a genius (like Edison in an earlier age); however Musk can now spend more than NASA on rocket development - an absurd derogation of duty by the public sector to ONE private individual. eg NASA's budget in 2020 was c. $26 billion - pocket change for Musk who last week offered double that amount to buy twitter ...to guarantee "free speech".... no doubt even for criminal ideologues like Alex Jones who caused the families of victims of mass murder to be harassed by Jones' mindless followers. Great service to the world, giving uncontested voice to such ideological madness.

    Like I said, Musk is (even if inadvertently) taking advantage of a sick, dysfunctional system which elevates 'successful' private sector individuals above the government's capacity to represent the entire population.

    1. Charities should not exist, they are no replacement for good governance. Provision of basic services should not depend on the whims of rich people.

    2. Wealth distribution in our dysfunctional system is so extreme - with half the population living pay check to pay check at best - that half the population cannot afford to pay tax. Meanwhile the very wealthy pay minimal taxes, as is well publicized by 'Patriotic Millionaires':

    Patriotic Millionaires is a nonpartisan organization of Americans with high net worth who promote the restructuring of the American tax system so that wealthy people pay a greater share of their income in taxes.

    But none of them realizes the system itself is dysfunctional; a currency-issuing government doesn't need rich peoples' money (or any citizen's money) - as Stephanie Kelton has said: "money doesn't grow on rich people" (.....a tongue in cheek reference to the oft heard Conservative refrain that 'money doesn't grow on trees').

    But YOU need to know money is always created out of nothing, that's why I suggested Warren Mosler's article, to start educating yourself.

    beware of claims of ignorance, in a dysfunctional system, as outlined above.

    Welfare is always a disaster, that's why we need a Job guarantee.

    We don't need small shopkeepers any more, unlike the days when "Britain was nation of shopkeepers". And the secure well-paid middle class jobs that made Detroit wealthy have all disappeared, replaced by insecure low-paid mickey mouse gig economy jobs. No wonder job seekers are demoralized.

    No, that's just your experience.

    I don't have a business bone in my body, so I put my head down and held a government job for 30 years, and now I'm retired and comfortable (and loving it). But the public sector is underfunded now, as the privatization fetish in a dysfunctional system takes hold, as outlined above.

    A dysfunctional SYSTEM; government needs to supply public housing for those unable to pay private sector prices.

    You are still insisting on the capacity of the individual, while denying the capacity of the government as required for the betterment of society. It's an unbalanced approach to life on a finite planet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2022
  2. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    16,792
    Likes Received:
    13,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    YOU should beware of what you do not understand here. It is very difficult to convey that to someone who already believes they understand everything, because they demand any new thoughts to fit neatly into what they already believe. To the extent what you believe is wrong- you automatically reject what is right and would correct the issue. That insures that you will continue to be wrong- permanently, and the proof of that is demonstrated when the product of that belief continues to fail. Think on that.

    In America, Government IS the product, the sum of- the individuals, the population of the nation. Government and society, all the laws and values- are made by the people, via government.
    Just as you and I elect people to office, we also elect their views of what government should be and do. IF we chose people with different views, government would be altered by those views.
    By the people's tolerance of those who prove unfit, we allow the corruption of government. IF we fail to take the responsibility for what government becomes- we abdicate our power.
    I'm going to use an analogy to give you a more practical way to understand what is going on here.

    A government, a society- is a Structure. Think of it like a brick walL, or a house built by- People. It's larger than any individual- but dependent on the individuals who built it, and cannot exceed the quality they build into it.

    Now think of the bricks- which are not all the same. Some are straight and true- and independently strong, because they have been fired; tested and proven. Some- are blocks of clay... the mud that blocks that can become bricks, but have not yet been fired, and have little strength. Some are bricks that have been fired, but are fractured and flawed- and weak. These are- the people. We are all bricks, in some way- part of the structure, or protected by the structure, the house we build.

    Which of these will you build your wall out of? In our nation, they all have an equal voice- and by the process of election, we choose those which will be in the pivotal positions, where there strength and quality will control the stability of the wall. These...are the politicians we elect.

    Now- think of the mortar; the adhesive that bonds the bricks together and makes the wall stronger than the individual bricks it is built with. These are the relationships between the bricks- between the people, that bond us together. IF those bonds are strong and right, they combine the strength of the bricks, and make the wall very strong. IF that mortar, those relationships, are not strong and true, they cannot hold the structure together or create the value of shared strength among the people, and the wall will fail.

    YOU and I are bricks. The People. The laws we make, the values we honor- are the mortar that holds us together and gives us all greater strength.
    That is what government is- A structure created by the people, with laws and rules created by the people, for the purpose of managing the greater affairs of the people in the best interests of the people.

    IF THAT IS DYSFUNCTIONAL- IT IS BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO BUILD IT, COMPRISE IT AND TOLERATE IT'S FAULTS ARE DYSFUNCTIONAL.
    IT IS NOT GOING TO FIX THE PEOPLE..... THE PEOPLE MUST FIX IT. AND TO DO THAT, THE INDIVIDUALS MUST FIRST FIX THEMSELVES.

    Until we think differently, elect people with different values or find a way to insure those we elect will do the job honorably- government will not, Cannot, change.

    You are saying- the product that we the people have built and operate is flawed and dysfunctional, but you and I are not responsible for that; it should fix itself.
     
    James California and ToddWB like this.
  3. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Don't forget to look in the mirror...

    The GFC was an indication of the systemic failure of the current economic orthodoxy, a dysfunction which lies at the heart of the system. Governments had to intervene otherwise the resulting chaos would have made the Great Depression look like a picnic.

    And if governments had not supported lock-downed workers in the pandemic, then chaos would have ensued. (The nature of the government support was faulty, hence the 'inflation' we are seeing now, but that's another story).

    An extent which you are incapable of understanding, since you know nothing about the nature of money and how it is created .

    Laughable; you are assuming what YOU know is correct...

    Refuted above. How would you deal with the GFC and global pandemic, other than 'let it rip' and let the market sort it out, to the cost of innumerable lives and livelihoods?

    But if you are all being led by the nose by usurers who demand the sole right to create money, your government will be dysfunctional - which it is.

    Who are "we"? Certainly not a unified whole of the total population, just the few hold power - who grant the sole privilege of money creation to usurers.

    Addressed above. When systemic dysfunction is the foundation, corruption is moot.

    Please don't......

    But if the builders are using corrupted mortar ('money as debt'), the building will ultimately fail.

    You will note I already did, above. Your mortar is faulty, and so cannot form a strong relationship between the 'people and the government'.

    As you can see. I demolished your analogy right at the very start.

    But the people have to understand the nature and source of the dysfunction; namely, blind, unknowing acceptance of usury by a small privileged group of people (private banksters).

    And individuals can only fix themselves if they first understand the illusions which lead to the current systemic dysfunction, eg, half the population living paycheck to paycheck, while NASA's budget is small change for ONE man.

    Correct. Hence my expose' of the foundations of the current dysfunctional system ("it's the economy, stupid") .

    The system can't "fix itself"; MMT is only now formally entering the tertiary economic faculties, so positive change will take place as new graduates occupy central bank positions, and ordinary people are disabused of their various illusions about "other people's money", "taxpayers' money", and "the debt will be a burden on our grandchildren", etc etc etc.
     
  4. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    16,792
    Likes Received:
    13,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    During a time I was in the business of teaching the skill of "thinking", literally becoming skilled in the use of your own mental capacity, I taught many different groups- from hundreds of Boeing management people, to recovering drug addicts. In the process of teaching, you learn about the capacity of people to adapt their thinking- to change themselves. Those able to do this become winners- those who cannot become arrogant, angry failures, forever blaming something besides themselves for all their hostility toward life. They accept nothing which does not fit neatly into what they already think they know- and that insures they will never understand differently, and will stay exactly where they are. Nothing you can do to help them.

    Unfortunately, I think that and Mr. Kettering's quote below sums up your grasp of this issue very well.
     
    James California and ToddWB like this.
  5. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    9,714
    Likes Received:
    2,059
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Also pretty clear to whom black lives matter the least....
     
  6. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Good. And they are all, like you, still living in the 'flat-earth', illusory world of money as debt.

    I beg to differ; how about 'reaching for the stars', to achieve a progressive civilization on earth (as well as progressive individuals you are promoting) , based on 2 simple propostions:

    1. Eradication of war, achieved by establishing international law, via an ICJ backed by a UNSC without veto. (We almost got there in 1946...but not quite...)

    2. Eradication of poverty, through elimination of public debt, via authorization of currency-issuing governments to create money out of nothing (hence no public debt), recognizing real resources, not money, are the inflation constraint. (Keynes was almost there, in 1944, with his 'clearing union' concept.....)

    ....indeed, a recipe for a doomed human civilization on earth, the result of ongoing war and poverty, which are themselves a manifestation of poor resource mobilization based on self-interest alone.

    We will see, as the planet's ecological resources are pushed beyond sustainable limits.
     
  7. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    16,792
    Likes Received:
    13,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    While you're visiting that other world, ask the aliens exactly how the of printing funny money will prevent people who don't produce from living in poverty. Wait- I forgot, that's already been done right here on earth, but most people don't know how to take advantage of it. I'm sure you would put it to good use!

    We might as well get you out of poverty right now, since you have found out that will work. Of course this will be our secret, don't go telling people how you did it. Attached below is the simple solution. This is the image of a genuine $10 billion dollar banknote, which I used to get rich. You can acquire legally one for about the cost of postage (in USD) to send it to you. Or if you really want to be secure, there are $10 trillion dollar banknotes available too. Just put the amount of wealth you would like in the search window of ebay, and click on "Buy" . It's that easy. You will be forever rich, and the envy of your friends and neighbors!
    Just don't tell anyone the secret. Just take your your fabulous riches, and live like a king. Oh- it works better if you move to Zimbabwe. Beautiful place, too.

    upload_2022-4-21_21-54-17.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2022
    ToddWB and James California like this.
  8. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You mean a world without war and poverty?

    You haven't bothered to read any of the links I supplied, but I'm patient.

    1. All money is 'funny' or 'artificial', whether existing as paper (or coins) with pictures and numbers on it, or as electronic digits in computer bank accounts.

    2. People living in poverty is a political choice, unless above-poverty work is available for all who want it, regardless of job market conditions.

    Only a currency-issuing government and/or its authorized agents can create money; if anyone else tries to do it, they will end up in prison.

    But what people DO lack is the knowledge that money is created out of nothing, by the legal currency-issuers.

    Addressed above; "we" - being currency users, not legal currency-issuers - will end up in prison if we follow any of your narrative in that paragraph. .

    No secret, though as Henry Ford noted (in the Great Depression):

    “It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”


    Ah, the appeal to Zimbabwe (or Weimar, or Venezuela) by the financially illiterate. Hyperinflation is always a resource deficiency paradigm.

    MMT provides stable prices at full employment and zero interest rates, via currency-issuing government which observes the productive capacity of the nation (to avoid inflation).
     
  9. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    16,792
    Likes Received:
    13,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I explained this to a door knob and a stump yesterday and both made intelligent responses- they chose to be- silent. I think they remembered the old saying- "Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2022
  10. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    4,326
    Likes Received:
    2,199
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Reading through this thread I came upon this post. I see a lot of insight in it so wanted to quote it so more see it a this time later.

    To the above I would add that social programs ARE needed, but should be linked only to need and never racialized.
     
  11. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,326
    Likes Received:
    4,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Matthew 26:11 Attributed to some one (else) wiser than you
     
  12. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    9,457
    Likes Received:
    9,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    ~ Someone should tell AOC that old saying :neutral:
     
    spiritgide likes this.
  13. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is a difference between being poor (and functional) and living in poverty (and dysfunctional).
     
  14. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113

    "The solution seems clear: the old ghetto communities must be phased out of existence; integration, the long-scorned ideal of the early 1960s must be revived
    ".

    Exactly. Spiritgide's insistence, that change is the individual's responsibility ALONE, is insufficient.

    And of course you are right; people of ANY race can find themselves homeless and jobless, when 'the music stops'; hence it's up to government to guarantee sufficient housing and jobs to guarantee availability of these essentials for all, and nothing less than changing the present dysfunctional neoliberal economic system will suffice.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2022
  15. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So you are reduced to exploring ideas with inanimate objects....doesn't surprise me, conservatives often resort to this escape route, to avoid examining new ideas which demolish their 'flat-earth' world view........

    There are not enough houses and jobs, to eradicate poverty.

    Solution: change the system so that there are enough houses and jobs.

    Hint: discussing the matter with your doorknob will be less confronting and more comfortable for you, but will NOT increase your knowledge of economic realities.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2022
  16. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I dealt with poor versus poverty; and one thing we know about the man Jesus is his anti-war stance.
     
  17. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    16,792
    Likes Received:
    13,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    But I believe the doorknob made a wise choice. I believe you did not.

    The most basic elements of economics escape you. Not like a greased pig at the rodeo you couldn't catch, more like something you never even saw.

    First- money does not have value, it represents value. When you buy something, you give the seller money with which they can buy something. Identical to bartering, which is trading good of services for good or services- except it adds flexibility and convenience. At some point, both start and end, the money represents value. You can't print value- it must be "associated" with the paper money, because the money itself is just paper.

    Value comes from productivity- of goods or services of some kind. Not from printing presses You cannot print cars, or beans, or cattle, they are thing of value. They take productivity.
    The sheer nonsense of saying we can print money and distribute it and it would have value so there would be no poverty- assumes that having a pile of funny money means you are not poor.
    If your funny money has no value, it will buy you no goods, nobody wants to accept it, work for it- and no matter how much of it you have, you can't feed yourself with it. You ARE poor.
    Poverty is not the result of the lack of housing or jobs- but the lack of productivity and the will to work, to BE productive.
    I once had an employee making a similar argument- long ago, trying to convince me to hire his brother- who was worthless. He insisted it was just so hard to find a job- so I bet him $100 I could find a job for myself, without using any references or listing any qualifications or experience- before the day ended. What's more- I would do it without leaving my office. He lost, I had two firm jobs lined up by the end of the day, just using the phone- and convincing potential employers I would be highly productive and I would make them money. I got those jobs on the basis of attitude- demonstrating I had something of value to sell that they needed.

    While you are fantasizing about the way you would like to imagine things work, I was proving how they worked- probably while you were still loading your diapers.
    I'm open to rational discussion of the options on most things, but talking nonsense and drivel is a waste of time. The only value in responding here is to point that out to others who might waste time wondering if funny money would cure poverty or make them rich.... that it is only nonsense.
     
    ToddWB likes this.
  18. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is at least open to debate, as noted by James Galbraith:

    Who’s afraid of MMT? | Jordan Times

    "As anyone who has ever been responsible for legislative oversight of central bankers knows, they do not like to have their authority challenged. Most of all, they will defend their mystique, that magical aura that hovers over their words, shrouding a slushy mix of banality and baloney in a mist of power and jargon.

    As a result, tormenting central bankers is great fun. John Maynard Keynes famously tormented Montagu Norman, Governor of the Bank of England (BOE) from 1920 to 1944. Wright Patman and Henry Reuss, two US congressmen who chaired the House Banking Committee in the 1970s, did the same to Federal Reserve Chair Arthur Burns. I know that Reuss enjoyed it; I assisted him at the time."

    You are asserting the "most basic elements of economics" escape me, yet those are some pretty high-powered practitioners of economics there, and James among them is asserting some of them are wrong.....

    Correct! ... I have already covered all this, yet you go on to draw the wrong conclusions.

    Your error here is that, though money represents the value of goods or services, as you correctly say, yet money is not the goods and services themselves wherein the true value lies, money only represents value, to facilitate convenient exchange of real goods and services.

    The money itself is created out of nothing, it has no value until it is required to measure the 'value' of goods and services under consideration.

    Correct again! ...yet as before you go on to draw the wrong conclusions...

    Still correct, so let's read on....but note: iron-age Britain (ie, pre-Roman invasion) was quite 'productive' (as required) without using money at all...which contains a clue to your upcoming error.

    Yes that is indeed nonsense; but what is not in doubt is there are sufficient real resources to house, clothe, feed, and employ everyone.

    And the money required to facilitate all this production and trade can ALWAYS be created out of nothing by the legal currency-issuer.

    Unfortunately it isn't, as you are proving...

    Correct again! ...but the legal currency-issuer automatically assigns value to the money which it creates out of nothing, when it pays for goods or services which are available for purchase in that currency.

    (IOW, money has first to be spent into existence, by the legal currency-issuer)

    Your error is to deny the existence of the public sector's role in the economy, ie in assigning value to the government's national currency.

    ...an obvious error (at last!); if housing and above poverty jobs are available for all, then by definition, poverty is eradicated.

    Productivity is the TOTAL of available resources, individuals' skills, and know-how in a nation; the government's role is to ensure maximum sustainable prosperity, given the nation's productive capacity.

    He may have been worthless to you, but he was not worthless to the nation, in which an infinite amount of useful work is available.

    Agreed; the reason I continue this debate is on behalf of the onlookers who might be interested in understanding money beyond the usual tripe about "taxpayers' money", or "balanced government budgets" (as opposed to your and my budgets which must be balanced because we are users, not issuers of the currency), and related garbage like "the debt will be a burden on our grand-children" etc etc .

    And to wake people up from the disastrous 'small government' neoliberal ideology.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2022
  19. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    16,792
    Likes Received:
    13,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Time to send you home for some remedial education...

    That 10-billion dollar bill was assigned value by the maker. That isn't really within their power- unless they are backing it with gold or distributing it in return for goods. Free money simply cannot have value.
    An old saying in sales is that "If you can't blind them with brilliance, baffle them with BS". That's where your theories are at. Most of the "brilliant" economists that write such stuff- never created a successful business or built a fortune. That is OK too- PROVIDED those who wish to invoke their theories can prove they actually work.

    I've looked into great historical successes many times. Asked how often the levels of education were parallel to their success. One that struck me as most interesting was the founder of the Bank of America; 2nd largest in the nation, founded more than 100 years ago, by Amadeo Peter Giannini. Perhaps back then they taught economic theory in the 8th grade in 1885? Because that is as far as he got.

    I've spent a lot of hours listening to Warren Buffet, in person. I've known 2 people on the Forbes 10 richest list, worked with and knew several entrepreneurs whose personal name wouldn't mean anything to you- but their corporate names would be instantly recognized. My financial teachers have been people of great success, because I chose to learn from those who had proven they knew- and ignore those who claimed to know but couldn't demonstrate it. The lifeskills teachers I chose to learn form have been even more successful, and the combination of working understanding and self realization changes everything. Made a few people millionaires along the way too. This wasn't always true; at one point I was chasing solutions to these problems like you are- reading books, listening to "experts". My success began when I threw out what I thought I knew from listening to theories of people who weren't achievers, and paid attention to people who had actually achieved great success. You've heard the saying of "Got it straight from the horses mouth", and that's good advice. But you do need to be sure you aren't at the wrong end of the horse, because all you find there is flatulence and used oats. Most theories are made of things like that, and it's all you have on your plate. It has value as fertilizer, but it helps grows cabbage, not money or wisdom.

    Think and say what you like- but if what you do works well, you ARE doing it right. If it doesn't work, you ARE DOING IT WRONG. It's not the minority getting it wrong, it's the majority- otherwise success would be common, not rare. We would not be the only species on the planet that can't do what every other species can do, and the one most likely to be responsible for our own extinction. Being wrong- is far more popular than being right for the more insecure of society, because you can make up what you think works rather than accept the facts. Blame it all on something else besides their own inability to navigate reality successfully. Such people abdicate the power over their own lives to others, then rant because it's not working well- and tell others why they are doing it wrong. That is their "solution."

    IF your preferred economic theories were genuinely practical- actually improved the strength and health of the country, don't you think they would be in use, and everything would be ducky?
    They are quite frankly the product of the liberal mindset that sees money as public domain that everybody is entitled to possess and benefit from. Ideas directly from- the wrong end of the horse.
     
    FatBack and ToddWB like this.
  20. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That paragraph alone is all we need to consider.

    The value of fiat currency derives from the desirability of the nation's goods and services (productivity). Gold is an irrelevance.

    Therefore a $10 billion bill has value only if the resources on which the bill can be spent are available for purchase. If the resources are not available (in the combined public and private sectors), the $10 billion bill will not be able to purchase the desired goods and services.

    But, with this constraint in mind, the spending power of the legal currency-issuer certainly ought to be utilized, where the private sector fails to provide essential goods and services.

    OTOH, Bitcoin and other digital currencies are a mere Ponzi scheme, based on people's misunderstanding and distrust of fiat currency; bitcoin's value will persist as long as people think it has value, and even the opportunity to make money on its appreciation in value, for no other reason than it might appreciate in value.

    A fiat currency is best when it maintains a stable exchange value, via maintenance of the nation's productivity (goods and services).

    Meanwhile, to remind us of banksters' tricks in the current dysfunctional, fake financial casino that fraudulently passes for the 'real' economy:

    Thursday, April 21, 2022 – Bill Mitchell – Modern Monetary Theory (economicoutlook.net)

    "Helping ease food insecurity and starvation requires governments to ban bankers speculating on food prices".
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2022
  21. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    9,714
    Likes Received:
    2,059
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Uh-oh, here we go...
    Nope. Wrong. Value is what a thing would trade for, so money measures value.
    Wrong again. Using money is only like barter if you are using commodity money (we aren't). Fiat money and debt money are created at effectively zero cost, but have value because they are useful for settling debts. Because you do not actually know any economics, you are unaware of the fact that almost all the money we use is debt money issued by private commercial banks as loan proceeds. It is simply a bookkeeping entry, a newly created liability of the bank that balances a newly created loan asset, and is erased as the loan principal is repaid.
    Wrong again. Our current money is legal tender -- i.e., it is useful for settling all court-ordered liabilities, especially tax liabilities -- and its value (purchasing power) can most definitely just be "printed."
    Wrong again. Value comes from the combination of utility (demand) and scarcity (supply). That's all. Production (not productivity) creates value, which is why we engage in it, but it is not the only way value happens.
    And they are also not money.
    Wrong AGAIN. Having a pile of money that will settle debts, and that others are consequently willing to give you stuff in return for -- funny, somber, or otherwise -- most definitely means you are not poor.
    <sigh> But as long as everyone can use it to pay their taxes, and thus avoid unpleasantness with the Treasury Department, it WILL buy you goods and services, and people WILL accept it and work for it, and you WILL be able to feed yourself with it. See how that works?
    GARBAGE. There are billions of people who work long, hard hours at productive labor every single day, and are still poor, while the privileged get rapidly richer without lifting a productive finger. Your blame-the-victim spew is disgusting.
    Oh, I get it: you're a smooth-talking con man in the Donald Trump mold. Yes, well, the business world is full of them, many of them highly successful, and like you, all of them highly convinced that getting money is the same as earning money.
    <yawn> Yeah, and so were Bernie Madoff, Conrad Black, Ken Lay, Jeff Skilling, Jamie Dimon, Hank Paulson, Dennis Kozlowski, Bernie Ebbers, Donald Trump, Richard Fuld, and orders of magnitude more "successful wealth creators" whose names we do not know because their crimes have never been exposed.
    No you aren't. When I proved your claims are absurd, disingenuous and evil anti-economic garbage, you put me on Ignore. Prediction: you will not engage with me this time, either, because you know I will demolish and humiliate you again for your provably false, atrocious, and disgraceful blame-the-victim filth.
    As they say in Japan, "It's mirror time!"
     
  22. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well...an excellent post.

    (I won't spoil the positivity by mentioning the JG.....).
     
  23. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    20,374
    Likes Received:
    7,779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What does this have to do with black culture?
     
  24. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    See post #1060 which referred to an earlier post;

    "The solution seems clear: the old ghetto communities must be phased out of existence;"

    Government is required to make this happen; and government needs to raise the funds to make it happen.

    Interestingly, the legal currency issuer CAN spend the funds to make it happen, without taxing or borrowing from the private sector, though your willingness to learn how, is likely another matter altogether.
     
  25. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    16,792
    Likes Received:
    13,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The theory you buy into is- that everything we use is trickery of some sort. The assumption that those who tell you what you want to hear are honest those who do not are tricksters- should tell you that you have indeed been tricked. Nothing is perfect, not systems, people, or policies. Everything in the situation here is flawed to some degree because it's the effort of people to create a system that keeps things orderly- and it's the best they can do as a common effort. The wise people seek ways to improve what works best- not throw it out and replace it with unproven nonsense. Unfortunately, we have a substantial shortage of wise people, or we wouldn't have what we have now in the white house.

    Your beliefs are the stuff of socialist and communist ideology. The basis of economics is quite simple- and it is the trading of values between people. Money is only our tool to make this more convenient- and over time, has greatly extended what can be done in helping finance larger projects and such. While it has faults- most problems are the faults of the people using the system of money, not the fault of the concept itself.

    A lot of people are terrible at managing their own finances- and the vast majority of those people want the system to be changed to compensate for their individual situation and lack of that ability. Doesn't work.
    But beneath it all is the same basic principle. You cannot give money away without making money worthless. It's worth depends on what people are willing to take or give in exchange- just like a horse trade from hundreds of years back, that fluctuates and some do better than others. While the value shifts because of what people do, it's still true that we cannot force people to produce without compensation nor without consent to the nature of compensation, because we do not allow slavery. If we set rigid values for everything, we kill incentive and collapse our own system. This is exactly what Venezuela did, and I was there to manage a project in 1989, in the midst of marshal law and curfews over the mess that created; watched it first-hand- and they are still clinging to the same flaws, 33 years later, even more destitute than before. Once they were the richest nation in south America, based on the same economic system we have. Now they are the poorest. You can force people to pay for things they will never benefit from, because we have government- that exempts itself from the concept of trading values consequentially. That flaw too is due to people demanding that money should be given to them without the requirement for the equivalent productivity. Corrupt government destroyed Venezuela by promoting the fulfillment of that illusion. Today 1/3 of the population is unable to keep food on the table. History proves these manipulative economic theories, ideological economics, do not work. Never have.

    I understand that you can't grasp this- because you believe something, which you can't question. That's a condition that assures you will never be able to see the flaws in your own beliefs; you can't allow them to be challenged. So- you're stuck. You can complain indefinitely, but that is nothing more than venting frustration. Real solutions produce positive results. Theoretical "what if we all" ones only produce misery.
     
    FatBack and ToddWB like this.

Share This Page