Breaking: Passenger plane shot down over Ukraine?

Ukraine responsible for airspace safety: IATA

 

So what? The plane was shot down by Buk missile system and you know it.

And Russia, USA and Great Britain are responsible for providing security for Ukraine by Budapest Memorandum.

 

So your argument is that the Ukraine shot down their own Sukhoi 25 on July 16th?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/ukraine-air-force-jet-shot-down-by-russian-plane/

 

Whose BUK system is the question. Regardless of who shot it down Ukraine should be forced to compensate the families for its simply callous intrusion into airspace over an active war zone supposedly in the knowledge the rebels had the capacity to shoot it down. This simple disregard for all conventional logic and the lives of the civilians on board is simply despicable.

 

Internet users found recording the program "Chas W" on the TV which were recorded July 16 SAM "Buk" and radar Ukrainian Armed Forces in the zone of fighting between the rebels and the Ukrainian army. From 4:45 :
[video=youtube;Q3MomxNHnUA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3MomxNHnUA&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Whith comments:
[video=youtube;Lgfa_kWm4_k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgfa_kWm4_k&feature=player_embedded[/video]

 

No, it is not. The plane was shot down over separatist-held territory. It could be only separatist or Russian military. Which is the same. And they should pay. And they will pay.

 

I disagree.

There are a few points of contention that need to be discussed first. Even if we assume that the action was carried out by Russian separatists who Ukraine knew had the capability of down a civilian aril-liner why was flight MH17 diverted 300 miles off course into an active war zone and specifically one where the danger of it being shot down was credible. Another noteworthy aspect of this ordeal was the fact that numerous Ukrainian fighter jets, transport planes and helicopters had been shot down over East Ukraine before MH17 was redirected meaning Kiev knew full well the aircraft was being put at risk of misidentification and destruction.

Another interesting point was the fact that the U.S has failed to produce any evidence supporting the claim the battery was fired from separatist held territory despite claiming that it had irrefutable satellite imagery proving the rebels were the perpetrators? So if they have the proof, why can't we see it? This is particularly unusual considering that the US has numerous times demonstrated its satellite capabilities by releasing numerous statements and photographs concerning the supposed deployment of Russian forces near the Ukrainian border? You really mean to suggest that the best funded, most sophisticated spy machine in human history can't provide the irrefutable evidence it claims to have? I personally am reluctant to trust the US government this time round, they have set the precedent of lying regarding the evidence they supposedly had, the Syrian gas attacks and WMDs in Iraq should serve as substantial evidence for taking the words of US officials with a grain of salt. Also, note the vague rhetoric of US officials regarding the Russian missiles. Empty rhetoric such as "we are beginning to believe" and "starting to get indications" seems common when discussing an issue for the supposedly have irrefutable proof.

According to the following article (I will include it in my post) a source informed the author that the missile battery most likely responsible for the missile launch appears to have been under the control of soldiers dressed in Ukrainian army uniforms and in an area know not to be under the control of rebel forces, but of course the credulity of the source can be called into question. Another interesting point is why was Ukraine operating BUK systems in the first place? The rebels have no airforce, no jets, no helicopters and they certainly haven't been conducting an aerial campaign. So why have manned anti-air defences in place near the zone of operations? The main source and proponent of the idea that the rebels carried out the act, aside from the US, is the Ukrainian government-a rather unreliable source wouldn't you agree? So are we supposed to just take their claims at face value and go along with the narrative before any complete investigation takes place, or the evidence is even analysed.

One final point not to forget is that Ukraine has already set a precedent of false-flag operations against its civilians in order to either draw international condemnation or generate massive support for it cause-the "Maidan snipers", Odessa fire and now this. Bet even is this wasn't intentional it isn't as if Ukraine is incompetent enough to shoot down a civilian airliner, only untrained East Ukrainian militia men are inept, right? Right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

http://www.globalresearch.ca/is-the-u-s-withholding-evidence-that-ukrainian-troops-shot-down-mh17-what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/5392743

While I am open to the idea that the rebels were behind the attack, and there is evidence to suggest they were I don't believe we should be taking side and rushing to conclusions before any impartial investigation has taken place or evidence is put forward and analysed.

 

[video=youtube;y9-8KvtfjZA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9-8KvtfjZA&feature=player_embedded[/video]

 

Ukraine is clearing the MH17 crash site of Russian Separatist so investigators can get in. This shouldn't surprise anyone since Ukraine is being pressured to secure the area.

 

The Dutch Prime Minister, Mark Rutte, has called Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to ask government forces to stop fighting around the Malaysia Airlines crash site after experts were unable to get there for a third day running.

"The prime minister this morning called the Ukrainian president with a request to halt hostilities around the crash site," Jean Fransman, a spokesman for the Dutch PM, told AFP. "Rutte expressed his concern about the fact it appeared the investigators may today yet again not reach the site.”

 

It does take two forces to tango. And right now the Russia rebels have control have that area and have been unwilling to let anyone near the site since the plane crashed. Ukraine will need to get control of the area to ensure it is safe for the investigators.

 

If you had control of a crime scene that would probably prove your guilt in the crime....would you let the cops do their jobs, or try to clean it up before they got there?

 

You need to do some serious catching up. Yesterday the rebels were escorting investigators to the crash site, but had to turn back after coming under fire from the Ukrainians. They went back to Donetsk, a rebel held city.

So who is it hampering the investigation?

 

The OSCE has been on site for some time. Their job is to monitor, not investigate. It would be a lie to say the rebels aren't letting anyone in.

~~~~~~~~~~

At the field in Ukraine where the exploded remnants landed, there are no guards and no recovery workers, no police officers and no investigators. Early Thursday evening, there were almost no people — just two curious 12-year-old girls looking at part of the tail of the Boeing 777. ... “There’s no one out here,” said Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, whose monitoring mission has been on the site every day since Friday. As for the arrival of international experts, “it’s not like our door is being broken down.”

 

Thus...I did not say that.

 

Torrez residents lynched catapulted Pilot Ukrainian army.

29.07.2014 - 22:21

According to sources in the New Russia, according to unconfirmed reports, the residents of Donbass caught, tried in place and were put to death catapulted the pilot of the Su-25 Kiev junta.

Punitive plane was shot down on the outskirts of Donetsk, the pilot tried to bring the plane, but left the plane over Thorez, where he was caught and beaten to death by the local population.

This information is verified. Torez city in recent days has become an arena of fierce opposition People's Militia and punitive Kiev junta saturate Ukrainian intense artillery and bombing. Expense of dead civilians from the area in the tens, and refugees - tens of thousands.

 

Ukraine needs it to destroy the evidence and plant a fake evidence of their choice.

 

so in other words, its false.

 

I think that is the idea and why Russian rebels don't want to give the site up.

- - - Updated - - -

So if the Russian rebels are in control of the area why don't they allow the investigators in. It seems to me the site is being picked through and evidence destroyed. So your comment makes no sense.

- - - Updated - - -

So if the Russian rebels are in control of the area why don't they allow the investigators in. It seems to me the site is being picked through and evidence destroyed. So your comment makes no sense.

 

Seems you need to catch up. The plane was shot down almost 2 weeks ago while it was under Russian control and has been under Russian rebel control ever since. Ukraine is now trying to drive the rebels out so they can secure it and get an investigation in. We know exactly who has been hampering the investigation.

 

Pronin24 is little more than a Russian propaganda plant and likely works for one of the many companies hired to post on the internet. Best to call them out for what they are, and wait for them all to go away.

 

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/in-de...crash-site-visit/story-fno88it0-1227006412208

Michael Bociurkiw, from the OSCE in Donetsk, said the warring factions had from the start been clearly informed of what the investigative team was trying to achieve and been given precise intended route movements, who was in the cars and number-plates of vehicles. “We’ve been dealing with the separatists for three months and since the crash happened we’ve had access every day until this (fighting happened),” he said. “There’s no excuse for anyone not to know the stakes in this. They are huge. One third of the passengers’ bodies are still out there. There’s a lot of debris.”

The rebels — branded “terrorists” by the Ukrainian government for taking over towns and cities in the eastern Ukraine over the past months —had twice over two mornings attempted to escort the unarmed investigators in convoy to the crash site, but made it only about half way before deciding it was too risky to push on.

T

 

Why wait I just move them to my stupid bin( the ignore list)...

 

Obama=Hitler+Hebbels