Perhaps people ought to be a little less defensive and talk to each other. I have onlyreally encountered two our three people that are completely unreasonable, but I did have to invite conversation and stifle my emotional reactions. I found a new respect for people I believed to be my adversary, I also found they weren't. It isn't easy to do, and the trolls will do their best to derail it. But if you commit to civility it will pay off. Furthermore I would say there are already laws protecting churches, it's the first amendment, but some how that doesn't apply, beats me why. That would be my first move in the court, I would laugh at the competition, but alas here we aretalking about it.
The people who run it are still ordained ministers, with the canons of their own church and ordination vows to consider, so your FAILure to comprehend the situation is noted.
This is true. I have had some enlightening conversations with homosexuals, I often speak of the fellow I chatted with whose devotion to God was so profound it brought tears to my eyes. These are difficult times we live in, I think some people see this as a football game and the only thing that matters is that their "team" wins. I fear that in some of these situations nobody wins.
I agree, but I don't think it has to be that way. I really believe we can settle this without anybody losing. What I often see in these types of debates it's passions become elevated and we don't exactly think before we speak in these situations, than things become an all or nothing, no compromise situation. We have to step down from that. Act with love, not anger, it's hard to do, it's humbling, but having done it myself I find it to be worth it. It's difficult to keep that demeanor, I have to really think about what I am going to say. But having an open honest dialogue is a good thing. I of course speak from a pro gay side, but I would rather have a peaceful compromise than a bloody war.
The difference is that I don't advocate for taking rights from bigots. And calling them bigots is just calling a spade a spade. If you advocate for taking rights from people because of an uncontrollable trait and stereotype them as evil, you're a bigot. It's impossible not to force moral standards on anyone in this situation, I do it by demanding the same treatment straight people get. You do it by demanding that we tolerate intolerance. They do it by demanding to deprive us of our rights. If we just calmly let people discriminate against us, nothing will get accomplished. We must fight and force our way to legal equality, and then we need to show people that prejudice against us is wrong. We can't tolerate intolerance, because intolerance won't tolerate us.
Okay, some people got backdraft for doing homophobic things. I admit that much. But none of those people were victims of violence and legal subjugation the way gay people are. And it still doesn't justify viewing all gay people as evil, considering how most gays didn't participate in that. And seriously, explain what separates you from a racist.
You are right, in the HOMO/HETRO game, nobody wins, bu it would be nice it we could somehow end up with a tie. (or both win)
Well, I thank you for reaching out, then, honest dialogue is hard to come by, especially in a place like this. I don't have all the answers, all I can tell you (that would be the collective "you") is what we believe and why we believe it. Can we please everyone? I have been around long enough to know that almost never works. So I guess at this point I have to ask: "What do you need from us?"
so... in other words, you got nothin'. You THINK that the government will someday order churches to perform wedding ceremonies for gay couples even though it is in direct violation of the constitution because.... why?.... some rightwing yahoo has convinced you that the ACA is unconstitutional? Buy some more tinfoil... you'll be going through a lot of hats, I'll wager. Take your idiotic irrational fears somewhere else.... please don't try to engage me with them anymore. thanks.
Really, all I have ever wanted was to just be the friend, or the mechanic, or the guy at the desk. Not the gay friend or the gay mechanic or the gay guy at the desk. You know, equality. I don't feel that my sexual orientation makes me special or contemptible. And in that regard, I would like to be able to get married legally to call my house a homestead, to provide my family with a more stable income, to notbe taxed so much more because my partners genitals are like my own. (don't mean to be crude). But I do understand there are people that think differently than I do, they want vengeance, I understand, I felt that way, not to long ago. And you can't please everybody there will always be malcontents on both sides. People will still tell me that I am mentally ill, people will still want to sue and so forth. They won't be pleased but they need to face their own demons, settle them and move on.
I have always thought along similar lines. It is none of my business who loves who behind the confines of their home. Two people should be allowed to join in some kind of ceremony (not a 'marriage') along the lines of a civil union or something binding but it must not be referred to as a marriage. Some years ago there was a female Tampa police officer killed in the line of duty. She had a partner who was denied any and all benefits that a legal spouse would have received if this was a legal marriage. This was the beginning of a legal battle in this area concerning these matters. It was an atrocity that this partner was denied benefits that a man and woman 'marriage' would have been entitled to. This from the St Pete Times; By BILL VARIAN Published March 12, 2004 TAMPA - Mayor Pam Iorio signed an executive order Thursday extending health benefits to unmarried domestic partners of city employees, including same-sex couples. With the order, Tampa joins a handful of other local governments in Florida offering the benefit to employees with domestic partners. Iorio said the decision was the fulfillment of a campaign promise stemming from the shooting death in July 2001 of Tampa police Officer Lois Marrero, whose domestic partner later was denied pension benefits. Iorio said the decision was made after months of fiscal and legal analysis. It does not extend to pension benefits, which are set by state law. "This is not a new concept. It's been around for years," Iorio said. "It's an addition to employee benefits that I think is important." The order came amid increasing national debate on gay rights issues. In Tampa, director of human resources Sarah Lang projected that about 25 of the city's roughly 4,600 employees may use the benefit. The estimate is based on private industry analysis of rates elsewhere. Lang estimated it would cost less than $60,000 annually.
Well, if you approach me in friendship and peace, I am always in favor of that. Well, there is more than one way to skin that particular cat. If, however, you think you are going to escape taxes by being married, well, good luck with that. It hasn't worked out for me so far. I am bound by the laws of my church, however, so here I stand, I can do no other. Does that mean I would do anything differently if I wasn't? Probably not, if I didn't believe what we taught I would have opted out a long time ago. However, if you pray the prayer of confession before you come to communion I will serve you and treat you with respect at all other times. I don't think that's enough for some.
A hard learned lesson. In Texas, my home state, you get a property tax credit on your home if you are considered a homestead. In order to be that it has to be a home for a family. For all intents and purposes we are, but legally we are just room mates. My lover is attending the final bits of his education and I work 60+ hours a week. On top of that we took in a homeless teen. He has needs. The property tax here in my post of town is ridiculous. I signed a 20 year mortgage. It's a battle to stay afloat. On top of that, I and my lover arenot equal custodians of the kid so God forbid anything happens to one of us, we get to go through that battle again placing stress on a kid that was nearly pulled back from the brink. Thanks, and no it isn't. I have a foul taste in my mouth from religion, it's hard to see past that, it's hard to forgive. It's not something that will happen over night, and it isn't just me either. It's my spouse and our kid. They feel the same way, from completely different religious backgrounds too.
Why should it not be a marriage? check the dictionary, a marraige is the joinng of two somethings, such as the joining or marraige of copper and zinc to become bronze, it is a marraige, and any contract between two or more people is also a marraige. as it stated in my post, Same sex partners need not call it a marraige But more and more I am beginning to change my mind, there is nothing wrong with same sex unions being called a marraige when in fact, it is. the Religious just need to STUFF IT
I spent several years in Texas, San Antonio, and Witchia falls, and both of my daughters were born there, Tell me, what is the present status of same sex marraige in texas. I would like to know. (Further, none of my business but is that your boy??)
Actually, yes you do. You want to force them to pay for everything. Such as the Hobby Lobby. You ignore parts of the constitution to impose yourself on to people, such as in the case of gay marriage. The proper reaction for the Supreme Court would be to turn that over to the let the state decide because that's what the tenth amendment says. You don't want to let normal American citizens own firearms. You don't believe in free speech because the only purpose to insult and berate people is to shut down debate because you guys could be wrong and you can't have that. And many other things as well. You guys can not handle criticism. You guys can not handle dissent. You think everybody has to obey you.
Just so some of you guys/gals know where I'm coming from I'll post this. (I don't think I have posted it here before) In 2008 I moved back to Wisconsin after having spent 35 years in a small town in the Mojave desert of California it had a population of about 1200 and had 2 nudist colonies and a prostitution ring of five ladies all over 60. I knew 3 of the ladies and the owners of both nudist colonies. The area had a cafe run by one Gay (semi-Fairy type)(*) and a bisexual who had been married and had both a child and grandkids (At that time they were partners. ) I even knew and was friends with A boy named Sue no not the one famous in song but a transvestite who's original name was Robert but changed her name to Susan.(*) When I was 19, I and 3 buddies visited a club named Phenockeos in San Francisco where the show was composed of a woman MC masquradingas a male comic,and the Chorus consisting of all male cross-dressers. One was namedFranki Renault and was one of the most beautifulgirls I have ever seen. Most if not all were gay.(*) After I and my wife were married we once (just once) went to a(*) cafe/club in San Antonio Texas called the Rockin M Rancho which turned out to be the same type. We were both rather conservative then. ` THE POINT IS that I have met a good many Gays Lesbians,bisexuals, a couple of Bull Dykes and many closeted individuals. Perhaps because I openly sympathize with peopleINCLUDING those who are deviates or otherwise different, they open up to me. ANDI have had enough experience with these folks that I am able to read the signs that most people can not. And while I am not always right I have a pretty fair track record. ( I even had a ten year old Girl try to put the make on me becaue I recognized her problem.(At the age of ten she was a true Nympho) I have counselled several closeted folks. (((( NO YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE ME)))) It used to be that Gays, Lesbians, and especially bi-sexuals would often get married out of derission and a a cover story out of guilt etc., because of their then disgraced orientation (not so much any more as gays are more apt to out themselves)(GAY PRIDE) and there would be offspring Just because a person is Gay or lesbian doesn't mean their plumbing stops working. And casual or maybe even hot sex would come about. Some I knew andwere semi-friends with were mid-aged men who were married hadchildrem and two had grand children. That's nothing new or unique If you had spent as much time with these sorts of folks (without being judgmental of them or their lifestyle, you also would learn to recognize the signs as I have.
When the hell did any of that become relevant? When did I ever say any of that? You're putting words in my mouth to make me out to be the bad guy. You aren't interested in actually discussing gay rights, you just want to rant about your stereotyped idea of what a liberal is.
It's different from pace to place but annual taxes on my home have gone up to nearly 7k marriage, still not there. And the kid is not my own son we took him in in his early adolescents.
