Do you support legalizing secession?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by HereWeGoAgain, Jun 29, 2022.

?

Do you support legalizing the secession of States from the US?

  1. Yes

  2. No

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  1. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The OP is nuts. In fact, it sounds like a Russian troll trying to stir up civil war in the US, trying to get Red State retards to think and act like Russia's pet "separatists" in Ukraine.

    But again, you can see that in his efforts, he cites the concepts of forcing one's will on others and of "letting people be free." As I said, people are indeed free to leave this country. They just are not free to force their will to leave on others in their state. Absolutely nothing is stopping a US citizen from leaving this country, though I would suggest that anyone who is so wacky in their thinking really needs to calm down and get a grip. Maybe switch to decaf.
     
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  2. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    It would fix nothing because the issue isn't the differences between the left and the right. The issue with the left is when it has the inability to control people who think differently and have different priorities then them.

    If states rights and state autonomy doesn't work for them then neither will secession.
     
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  3. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Your OP is coming 160 and some odd years late. Of course, as the colonies had felt it was their "right" to leave the British empire, it would only be consistent that the people in the USA, would be expected to have that same, inalienable right. All that should have been required, should have been the patience to work out the details. As President Lincoln was refusing to meet with representatives if the Confederacy, who were trying to do just that, the smart move would have been for those states wishing to leave the Union, to have taken their case directly to the Supreme Court, as the Constitution specifically states that, in all disputes between states, or states & the federal government, the SCOTUS has sole jurisdiction. But, cocky asses will be cocky asses, so Southern forces fired on Fort Sumpter, and gave Lincoln the excuse to call up troops. Without this aggression from Confederate states, it is highly unlikely, despite the Abolitionist Movement, that a majority of Northerners would have supported military attacks on the South. And as Honest Abe did not have Putin's powers of censorship, or disinformation, the predominant sentiment would have remained as it had been, prior to Fort Sumpter, that is, akin to the initial reaction of Russians, to invading Ukraine.

    At this point, however, the world has changed too much, to allow that past potential, to be explored. The political, military, and Intelligence entity, which is is our current United States, is now beyond division into discrete parts. It is simply no longer a viable option.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  4. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. The biggest mistake people make is thinking things are different now than before.

    There is nothing new under the sun. And one day the US will cease to exist. It's a fact. There is no reason why we can't proactively change things for the better.

    It is this or there will be a civil war. The situation in the US is not sustainable. Take your pick. Would you rather wait for everything to come tumbling down through the kind of chaos we saw the beginnings of on Jan 6th?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  5. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    Why is it that righties constantly make up bs excuses?

    Oh yes, it's because you know the Blue States create the wealth in this country. We are the engines of the economy.

    And we would be better off without you.
     
  6. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Anyone who feels there is a legitimate analogy between the January 6th "insurrection," and the popularity and resolve of the idea of separation from the Union, of the citizens of the Confederate States, shows himself to be wanting, in knowledge of the history of our Civil War.

    In the vast gulf between where we are now, and where we wound up, in 1860, there exists more than one possible fate, or course, available to us
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  7. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that had we let the "wayward sisters, depart in peace" as many wanted to, Great Britain would have occupied them within weeks. Britain was already at war with Zanzibar and several other nations in Africa over the Slave Trade, they would have jumped at the chance to get half of America back
     
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  8. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Highly speculative, on your part. An interesting theory, but I rather doubt it.
     
  9. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    We've already had this dispute. The lives of more Americans than have been lost in all our other wars combined have settled it some 155 years ago.

    Not one Southern State that seceded the last time had a plebiscite to do so, btw. The rebellion was entirely in the State Legislatures. People must have been really obedient to their local governments at that time, which I find amazing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
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  10. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    A good point. Returning to actual constitutional federalism allows states to make their own way on lots of issues. The anger and insanity over Dobbs isn't about the Supreme Court forcing it's opinion down your throat; it allows each State to make up it's own mind. So the OP is really mad about not being able to force his opinion down everyone else's throat. If he can't rule over everyone, he has no use for a United States that allows other states to make their own decisions.
     
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  11. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nonsense. We're just fine.
     
  12. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    So you'd be ok with some States having slavery? Seems we had that dispute already a few years ago, (like 155 of them). Your fundamental rights shouldn't be a matter of geography nor are they to be decided by any legislature State or National. The protection of our fundamental rights is what we have a Constitution FOR.

    Or maybe it's just as a convenient funnel for directing the beer up our ass.
     
  13. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Well, OF COURSE individual states have the right to leave the union -- absolutely nothing in the Constitution forbids any state from doing so.

    Nevertheless, the ruthless, overbearing tyrant, Abraham Lincoln, crapped all over the Tenth Amendment and got over 600,000 Americans killed to support his dictate that no state could leave.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  14. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Slavery? No. But slavery is actually unconstitutional. It spells it out in the 13th Amendment. So as an example, that was a poor one. Let me give you an example and see what you do with it: Some people regard Physician assisted Suicide as a human right, but the Supreme Court has ruled it's a state issue, so a few States have it legal, and a larger number have it illegal. Are "fundamental rights" being denied?
     
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  15. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Well, there was no 13th Amendment at all until just about four months before the Civil War ended, but slavery, per se, has nothing to do with the right of any individual state to leave the union. Nevertheless, Liberals will always (ALWAYS) throw "slavery" in your lap every time you dare to mention a state's right to leave! "Secession", as a civic action, has nothing whatever to do with "slavery".
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  16. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    One has to consider the poster I was replying to and his comment.
     
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  17. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Literally every single effort for national independence in world history has left a percentage of people who's freedom to remain tethered to a former govt compromised. Our own independence involved pissing off a lot of tory sympathizers who were dragged kicking and screaming into the new country. It was true when Israel was created, when Canada was created, when Australia was created.

    Personally I have zero problem with successful independence movements that impede on the freedom of some of their population who don't like the change as long as a majority want the change. Self determination is not a value to be smothered in its crib because some people will end up unhappy with the end result. Majorities force their wills on minorities..
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
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  18. wist43

    wist43 Well-Known Member

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    The original colonists and early Americans came here for freedom and opportunity - to essentially get away from the stifling control and bigotry of those in their day who were the equivalent of our leftists/Democrats today.

    Democrats and leftists want to control everybody's everything - decent, rational people don't want other people constantly meddling in their lives, but liberals can't help themselves.

    So it only makes sense that we want to break free from them again - only this time there is nowhere left to run. They're turning the entire globe into a gulag.

    The 21st century will be the bloodiest, most deadly century in all of recorded history.
     
  19. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    Defend your crackpot claims by citing my posts. And I am talking States rights, not the right to move to Cuba.

    The fact is, we have deeply Blue State and deeply red states, and there is no hope of ever getting agreement on key issues. There is no hope for peace with everyone living under the same roof. Civil war is inevitable. And Jan 6th was just a rehearsal for the extreme right wingers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  20. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    Even now, one of the great struggles in the DOJ is whether the civil cost - the potential for violence or even war - of prosecuting trump is worth it. But I and others argue that it is more important to preserve the Constitution. You cant allow trump to be above the law!

    Yes, they are struggling whether or not it is too risky to hold trump accountable for obvious crimes because the right wing is so violent.

    The solution is to end this nightmare before it blows up!
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
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  21. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    Happy 4th of July. :(
     
  22. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course there is hope of finding agreement. It begins with dialogue instead of mindless accusations and fear and hate mongering.
     
  23. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Bullshit! Where have you been the last 20 years? 'Dialogue' that ends in compromise, ends the careers of politicians. Thats why you have so few centrists and moderates left in Congress. Gerrymandering produces core blue districts and core red districts because algorythyms produce the kind of predictable results and computorized maps partisan hacks salivate for and that means centrists get mauled in primaries. Voters are living tribal lives sitting in front of PC screens and televisions tailored for profit by corporations to shove partisan propaganda and conspiracies as news and commentary and those produce hyperpartisan zombies that do the mauling. There is no way around all of this.

    This is not 1975 anymore. There is no hope that elections will produce the kind of results they did in previous generations. Every single American institution has been killed and eaten from the inside out. Your dream is dead. We have a new one now where both blue and red states can have hope to create real change separate and apart from each other. We won't need to obstruct anymore once we let go.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  24. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hope springs eternal, my friend. Knowing a bit about history and having a modicum of understanding of human psychology, I would predict that things will get a little worse yet before Americans finally stop and ask themselves and each other what they're doing, and seek to reverse the hyperpartisanship of the past 20 years or so. This country has been though far worse than the effects of Fox News on a gullible audience.
     
  25. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    they will ask themselves the questions Fox News and CNN pose on their airwaves.
     

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