Do you support the right of secession?

Some red states have enclaves of Democrats who are in a state of poverty, usually blacks who are living off the tax payers. You see that in most red states in the South.

It's getting worse with the huge increase of uneducated, unskilled, poverty prone immigrants and illegal aliens who are now showing up all over America today. They seem to be drawn to red states.

 

He didn't come from nowhere. This has been building since the 80s when AM hate radio stole the minds of millions.

Beyond that, the South is still waving Confederate flags and honors men who waged was on the US.

This is much deeper than trump. But his election shows the divide is now beyond repair. You can't be loyal to American principles, much less decency, and support a man like trump. He is the puss from a terminal infection.

 

I don't want to force trumpers to be real Americans, They can go have their own country. Just stay the hell out of my life!

It isn't complicated at all unless you want to start fighting wars over ideology. I would rather let the red states go off and create their Orwellian nightmare, than fight what they obviously want.

 

Every Democrat posting screeches about Trump like demons from the dark. Names against him flow like water from a hydrant.

But the one thing no Democrat has yet done for any of us is to specify just what Trump does as president that has them barking furiously.

Sure they tell us of a story of over 14 years ago with him and some whore in bed. But is he doing this today? He has a wife and son by her and they seem so loving to Trump. Surely this hate by Democrats has been heard of by now. But why harass him for events of 14 years back?

Had he stopped government services? We know that due to Obama a lot of poor people were ordered to by insurance from one of his firms or pay a steep fine. Trump removed that fine from the poor.

We know the things done since he took office. We find nothing to cause us to scream ugly things against the president. We have a meddler among us who is very pissed that Trump bought into and used his name for a alleged university. But she paid no money to them. And Trump paid with court consent millions of dollars.

As a long time Broker, i have seen many of these fast buck artists operate. And people gladly pay them money. I think they are fools. But it was not a firm Trump started. I believe when I pay money to others, my duty to myself is to be totally informed. I would not attend one of those courses because I am informed and know better than to do that. But can a totally ignorant person learn from such a course? Sure they can learn. Should they pay $35,000 for such a course? Not in my opinion. But I am not the typical person who buys or sells homes. I have operated far above that level and of course i have bought and sold homes. I have rented homes. I have rented them as the agent of owners. I can spot the jive talk a mile away. So the thing for consumers to do is to educate themself first and then decide if they want to pay big money to try to get rich fast. But don't whine if caught napping. They are warned.

 

So where are you going to live when Ca secedes and the liberals take over, Robert?

 

For what it's worth, and my barking is no worse than yours, Obama was not worth feces as a president. But not due to color. He was a lawyer. And a teacher. But not ever a good president. So you could have had the tawdry Hillary Clinton or the tawdry Trump. Frankly it was no contest for me. Hillary has a huge reputation as a total jerk.

 

Right here in Idaho. Idaho is an enclave of very good Republicans. And the crap happening in CA does not happen here.

 

I truly resent them using the term liberal. It connotes a philosophy not ever taught or used by Democrats. .

 

Frankly given I have been to most of the 50 states, given i visited them for the most part in excellent weather for them, I am now in Idaho. I knew ahead of time what it is like here. I have relatives here. But this state is a secret good state. Streets are sparkling clean. Roads are super well laid out. Shopping is all over the place. A pleasant shock was all the shopping. And homes are excellent looking. Even the low priced homes look awesome. The home I am living at would top $1.5 million dollars in the town I moved from in CA. Idaho will not be asking CA for money. It seems these people have plenty of money. And I have yet to see or notice a pothole in any street. Even the pavement seems to look new. My son says they do it this way on purpose.

 

Most blacks and Hispanics are religious and fairly conservative.

 

Most Hispanics from Mexico and Central America are very superstitious.

As for blacks, no black has been able to explain the gun violence we see every day in black neighborhoods.

 

What has happened to San Fran is criminal. Every elected official, Pelosi included, should be singularly focused in cleaning up that city and restoring it to the greatness it was before they were elected and it all went to hell.

 

Whoa!!!! Brilliant ... except that she's not stepping in poo-poo.

 

I do have an uncontrollable urge to purge his hairdo...

 

It's called poverty..

 

Let's start an amiable conversation about separation: call it 'Old America' and 'New America',or 'Rightwing Racist Fascist America' and 'Progressive Kind Inclusive America'.

New America can have all the poor, who can be given money and will overnight become law-abiding productive citizens, living peacefully alongside all the new citizens who will come over New America's open borders. Those gated communities can take down their hateful fences and retire their armed guards on full pay -- guns will be outlawed anyway.

Old America can fester in its racist homophobic sexist Islamophobic hate while forcing its unhappy citizens to recite daily prayers to Jesus, to take their minds off their new poverty, the Federal funds to former Red States having been cut off.

Everyone will be happy. An amicable divorce, masculine and feminine going their separate ways, the nuclear family being such an outmoded idea anyway.

 

I haven't read many comments in the forum, but I received a few points or whatever they are called for my one previous comment about secession. I apologize to the person who corrected me for discussing the South when the original comment about secession was about California. (By the way, I do think they should threaten to secede for political leverage purposes, but it would be unrealistic for economic, communications and transport issues, all of which are now global in nature.)

It ultimately doesn't matter what states may or may not have a small minority of people who make noise about secession. What really matters is that Americans are largely ignorant, [because of genetics which are worsening, the virtual demise of parochial Western European educational resources, and the lack of attention to build superior public education), and therefore are not consciously aware how their beliefs and therefore political ideologies are shaped by their Cultures. Instead, they polarize debates between correct and incorrect points of view. Polarization is a mark of ignorance in any debate, because there are an infinite number of impacts upon an issue. People polarize because they are not cognizant of as many facts and theories as they ideally should be. So, for example, you hear a lot of insufficiently educated and uninformed Americans polarizing Capitalism and Socialism, (which they ignorantly equate with "Communism."). In reality, after the vast concentration of wealth and capital specuation, and the consequent social and economic debacle called the Great Depression, and contrary to the desires of the oligarchs, FDR implemented re-distribution of wealth to calm the political climate and get the masses back to work, while incidentally causing the rise of the great middle class in this country. (Some oligarchs tried to remove him as President but failed. (I'll bet you weren't taught that in high school!) In short, for many decades up to the first great tax cut for the wealthy under Carter and then the conservative revolution implemented under the Reagan administration, we have enjoyed controlled (regulated) capitalism, which unfortunately is now mis-described and largely demeaned as "Socialism." This is why we have Sanders and Warren who are not "Socialists" as many believe, but actually want a return to what in Western Europe after WWII was called "Social Democracy." At the basic level it means fairer taxation of the rich, regulations to protect the masses and especially the renaissance a desire to rebuild a large middle class. You see, we live in a grossly unfair society controlled now almost entirely by oligarchs, and all but the incredibly dumb know that, but the media wouldn't call a spade a spade so we just have dissension, confusion and widespread despair. Unfortunately, the masses can only understand simple things, like "abortion is murder," but not complex things. That is a big reason why liberals, who tend to discuss policy issues, are not listened to nor is their ideology widely comprehended. Nothing my friends is simple. Understand that if you are say a conservative by nature, it is in part due to an enlarged Amyglottis gland in your brain, plus the Culture you were born into, and the upbringing you had. It is not "correct" nor "better," it is simply due to Chance. Fortunately for those who seek a more moral fairer society, it is a minority demographic.

Any Anthropologist can tell you that humans will go to great lengths to defend and pass onto their children their Cultures. Look up "Culture" if you do not know its characteristics. (I use an upper case "C" to underline that culture is tremendously important because it basically shapes who we are, our values and beliefs.) The United States of America has primarily three Cultures. A large one, which historically was insignificant but has recently grown to significance, (and therefore "threat"), is Spanish-American. That one is temporarily central to political debate because it is growing a rapidly and demographically will be dominant in some future decades. The other two dominant Cultures in the USA is (and the first is homogenous) Anglo-Saxon (which is largely Germanic you should know), and the other is (heterogenous) Mediterranean (Latin), Celtic and Slavic (but Slavic in the North is significantly Jewish, not peasant Catholic Slavs of the Midwest.) The USA is and has been since the great famine in Ireland, divided into two major "belief systems" because of these Cultural differences.

The dominant Culture in the South and some border states in the Midwest may be described as "Individualism" and "Self-Reliance," and the other in the North, Far West (and some of the Southwest where Hispanics are in large numbers) is "Community." The Midwest is individualistic because the large number of (non-Jewish) Slavic and Scandanavian people who immigrated there were peasant-farmer cultures which were affected by frontier conditions; plus the economy was for a very long time primarily agricultural. (You may want to read Frederick Jackson Turner's "Frontier Thesis" to better comprehend how moving into a frontier area shapes peoples' Culture.) Agricultural economies (the Midwest) engender conservatism because there is fear and anxiety due to isolation, loneliness, potential violence due to lack of adequate government policing due to distance, weather and economic market conditions. Urban cultures, found primarily in some of the coastal Far West, in the North and upper Midwest engender liberalism. That Culture might be called more urbane. An immigrant coming to Boston or Providence had to learn to live peaceably with many other European-based cultures, some Western European and other Eastern European, with smatterings of others from all over the globe. Hell, when I was a kid, I learned from my parents how Irish and Italians had rock fights in public parks over who would be "dominant" for jobs and neighborhood control, and including state and local government jobs. Incidentally, those nationalities quickly replace the English who were the original settlers after they destroyed the Native Americans, because those English could not populate anywhere enough to stay competitive with the massive wave of Irish and Italian and Jewish (plus others in smaller numbers) immigrants.

I am not going to address the Asian population at any length because the numbers are not high enough to influence government policy, but they have a sharing communal Culture.) The Europeans who immigrated to the Midwest succumbed to fundamentalist religious thought which shaped their political views. (They largely currently do not want to admit our founding fathers and the Constitution which they established eschews the notion of religion and political views being joined. They tend to vote emotionally on social divides, not paying much attention to the politico-economic fundamentals of ideologies. Note also that immigration to the west and southern midwest came not only from northern and eastern Europe, but also from the South. For example, Texas, when under Mexican control was populated by a lot of people from Tennessee who wanted to exploit the land with slave labor. (That caused the Texas independence movement and later the Mexican-American War which that drunk John Tyler from Virginia dragged the rest of the objecting US states into.) Getting back to the now politically problematic Midwest, Protestantism in Scandanavia (Lutheranism) was enormously popular, unlike in lower Europe (with the exception of the Germanic peoples and that includes England.) Why Scotland went to fundamentalist Presbyterian (Calvinism) dominance is a separate and interesting saga.) Anyway, an important point about the Protestant (now sadly fundamentalist) Midwest is that capitalism as an economic system relies upon individualism as a primary value. See Max Weber's thesis about Protestantism and the development of capitalism in Northern Europe. See, the South can be said rather broadly to be "Northern European," the Midwest "Northern European and Slavic," and the North and some of the Far West and Southwest as "Southern European." The French and Greeks by the way were not fence-sitting, they co-join the community-minded Southern European cultures. The Balkan countries populated the Midwest, and they were originally community-minded, but remember the Midwest consisted of vast distances (in those days with poor roads and communications) between large settled towns, and so gradually, those peoples became "self-reliant" and "individualistic" by sheer necessity. In urban areas, if you reflect upon it briefly, people are in close proximity to a large number of private and public resources and also ideas and belief systems (Cultures) from other peoples. That make them more broad-minded and liberal.

The Spanish-American Culture is primarily found in post-industrial cities in the Northeast and in the Far West and Southwest. It is primarily a Latin culture which like the Italians, Portuguese, Greek, and to a smaller degree western North African (e.g. Moroccan) and also the Irish, who were Celts, but who became Romanized in relatively early times. These Cultures emphasize community values over individualism. In other words, "we owe each other." In a crude sense you might say they believe what is good for the many takes precedence over the desires of the individuals in the group. In an even cruder sense, you could say they still believe in sharing, and not so much in maximizing their own self aggrandizement.

This is why there is for example a dichotomy in political ideology. One side, the Anglo-Saxon Germanic one, says "we don't owe "Them" anything--they should work for whatever they can achieve. The other side says the Chance has given some abundance and others a lack thereof, and everyone should share the abundance. Yes, there is a moral component to the dichotomy, and that is why you will see some philosophers and religious leaders, even in Anglo-Saxon countries, (e. g. the Archbishop of Canterbury) assert that the current ideology of religious fundamentalism is not charitable and is therefore not compatible with Christianity. The Spanish-Americans by the way, and also the Black Americans are community minded. That is a good thing, not a bad thing if you think about it. Now some will assert that independence, self-reliance and individualism have beneficial societal effects. That is true. But now think about how for two-hundred years this country has been struggling with the two dominant cultures (before the Spanish-American one was significant.) You see, when I go into the paint store and notice that one guy at the counter has a heavy southern accent but the other guy doesn't, I could bet successfully how they voted. In fact, once I asked the guy with the accent what he thought about the current political divide in this country and he said, "I don't follow politics, but I simply vote like my dad taught me." He had no idea what policies he was supporting. See, Culture is passed on from generation to generation. It matters little that the individuals are largely ignorant of the issues and ideologies, because they will follow the cultural dictates.

So now what does this all boil down to? In the short run--a couple of more fraught decades, the Anglo-Saxon southern and mid-western Culture will try to hold off great socio-political change by drastic comments, policies and measures; and they will rely upon assertive enforcement to instill compliance. That will fail eventually because demographics determine everything. The Spanish-American and Black American so-called "minorities" are growing in numbers much more so than other races and ethnic groups so eventually their Culture will prevail barring some unforeseen cataclysm, (which is not too far-fetched to imagine, like civil war, plagues, mass die-off from deprivation due to climate change and concentration of wealth, meteor strikes or whatever.) One thing one may want to notice is that whenever a society or a system is in stress and declining, the people who want that society or system to continue become more and more shrill and zealous. This is what is happening in the USA--the declining culture is becoming more radicalized and aggressive because the members instinctively know their Culture is being "threatened." It is my misfortune that as an old man who was brought up to be loving and sharing with all others must see this temporary dominance of a perverse attempt to force compliance with a dying system. Captialism and Anglo-Saxon cultural values are so passe now that they must use aggression, via the state and federal governments they temporarily control, to enforce their minority viewpoints.

One second-to-last thought I will leave with you, and it probably is the most fundamental thing you must absorb--our lives, everything in fact, is due to Chance. So don't go ballistic about other people making "bad choices." There is not a handful of Physicists and Philosophers in the world who still believe in "Free Will." Our choices are severely limited by Chance. (That is why the dumb average looking guy gets the beautiful woman, right?) People get rich or live in applicance crates by Chance.
See, to paraphrase one great writer, "The warp of life consists of an uncountable number of threads happening in eons past." Remember the "Butterfly Effect?" The illustration is that a butterfly flapping its wings in say the Amazon has a Earth-wide effect because that flapping gives causation to huge number of other effects. In addition, the waves and particles which comprise what is at any given nano-moment constantly change.

Oh, there is one last thing I would add--most people, unfortunately, due to genetics and poor education in the USA, suffer from the Dunning-Kruger syndrome. These psychologists developed an axiom that can be crudely described thus: people don't know enough to know what they don't know. So, by extension, a lot of the people who voice their views are not sufficiently informed to provide insight, except by Chance! Think about it--any physicist will tell you that what you perceive is not reality. There are an incredibly large number of past actions, inactions and conditions, and a currently huge number of wave and particle conditions which shape each nano-moment, so what you think is, is really an illusion of sorts. It is a difficult concept to comprehend and embrace, because our practical requirements require we think our observed "reality" is actual. We must act as though what I just said is useless speculation because we psychologically require predictability and accuracy of our senses. That is why I believe that Chance makes one person a criminal (in short, he MUST be a criminal, or he was MEANT TO BE, a criminal), while another person happens to be born into "royalty," (an admittedly ludicrous state of being.) It is Destiny, right? In other words, if what occurs in the Universe is up to Chance, why blame or praise someone else for what they achieved or fail to achieve? The downside of this of course, if you think about it, is: "So, what's the point?" Well, regardless of all this, we have to proceed as though we really have choices and have to deal with the consequence of those choices. Too bad, because it is not really, "real."

 

[I've cut your post out of the quote because the system won't allow posts larger than 16000 characters, but I hope anyone reading this will first read yours, above. But if I don't quote you, you won't be automatically notified of my reply.]

Thank you for an interesting post, on a very high plane. So much to discuss! Just a few selected points here:

As I understand it, you are arguing that "The Spanish-Americans ..., and also the Black Americans are community minded", as opposed to the Anglo-Saxon/Scandanavians with their passe capitalist individualism, and that soon the latter will be swamped by "demographic changes".

But in that case, surely the new majority, enjoying the wonderful caring and sharing community-minded happiness and prosperity we see in Africa and Latin America, or indeed in the barrios and Black ghettos of America today, will be happy to get rid of us old individualists with our "enlarged amyglottis glands"? [Never heard of that gland -- do you mean amygdala? I'm usually told that my conservative views come from an over-active amygdala, and/or a shrunken anterior cingulate cortex.]

(Just a note: when some people -- often but not always on the Right -- venture to suggest that various negative social behaviors among certain groups today stem from biological differences in their brains, they are immediately involuntarily enrolled by liberals into the NSDAP, since the default Leftist view of human behavior sees us as "Blank Slates" upon which a future benevolent socialist state will write the program for selfless behavior, after first having erased the faulty code that's there. Of course, if it's conservatives, or whites, who are being deemed inferior as a result of their biology, this won't happen -- but you are setting a certain logical precedent, making the idea of biological causes of negative behavior a respectable idea. I don't expect that anyone on your side will notice this, but ... I'd be careful here.)

A friend of mine - a gay Texan woman as it happens -- once noted that when she travelled in the North and someone heard her Texas drawl, "they immediately deducted 30 points from my IQ". Here's an easy experiment to do for someone looking for a research topic for their Master's in psychology -- and I'll bet it's true. Can we Southerners count this as a micro-agression?

I can tell you're of my (ancient) generation -- I too was raised on "the Turner Thesis" (I think William Appleman Williams used it explain our China policy -- the frontier extended across the Pacific) and Max Weber's "Protestant Ethic" thesis about capitalism. (I think historiography has moved on quite a ways since our youth though.)

And like a lot of pointy-headed 13 year olds I delighted in proving that there could be no such thing as free will to anyone who was polite enough to listen; the alternative irrefutable proposition for obnoxious bright kids is solipsism (great fun -- why doesn't everyone do it?); when that teenager is older and has read a bit he can become a Humean -- all great fun and of course no one really believes it.

(I don't think you are correct, by the way, about modern physicists and philosophers rejecting Free Will -- the ones I've read, anyway, tend to acknowledge that our present understanding of consciousness is inadequate for making sense of things like non-locality and all the other wonderful quantum weirdness. Or maybe my reading has just been selective. But as a dumb old Southern Anglo-Saxon with a dash of Choctaw, I've always been satisfied with Dr Johnson's observation that, "Damn it, Sir we know our will is free and there's an end on it!")

Anyway, it's heartening to see that I'm not the only person who submits term papers as posts. Please carry on -- there's lots to argue about. [One bit of advice: short paragraphs, none longer than four sentences. Consider it a concession to those of us conservatives with enlarged amydalas, low IQs, and inadequate educations, whose short attention spans can't handle long paragraphs.]

And to repeat: in the happy Black/brown majority nation of the future, surely white individualists will be the spoonful of tar in the barrel of honey? So let's work together to popularize the idea of an amicable divorce.