Does it matter why people are gay?

There is a decisive difference between a person saying he/she is a Christian, and saying s/he is a Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Pentecostal etc. The first is a belief and the latter is membership in an organization.

 

We all want limits on what other people can do to ourselves. I don't want to impose Christianity upon you or anyone, in fact I am required by Christianity to be available to discuss Christianity but cannot force anyone to be a Christian or to live as a Christian would live.

If you have been reading my posts for the past few years, that should be very clear. Never have I written that a non-Christian should be forced to be a Christian or to live by Christian rules.

And that goes both ways. I respect peoples decision to believe another religion - even if they mistakenly call that religion "Christianity" - or to be atheist, or to live a gay lifestyle, but I demand that same respect from them. You don't want me to tell you how to live, I don't want you to tell me how to live. And that's the current problem - you and your associates want to tell me how to live, how to run my business, how to practice my beliefs, who I can let in my house.

 

That is not what you wrote in describing what you believed. Please don't take this as a negative post, but look at what you wrote.

In the past few posts in describing your religion you wrote that you wanted to create the "kinds of outcomes Christ tended to promote" - not that you wanted to emulate Jesus, or follow his rules or examples, or do your best to meet His perfect example. You wrote "tended" - tended means you will often but not always work to create a Christian outcome, sometimes you will go your own way. From that it sounds like Jesus and God are not high on your priority list, perhaps worldly concerns are more important.

In the follow up post, you basically wrote that a Christian outcome is to be nice to people. No mention of a relationship to God. In the Bible, when is says to do "good works" it is as much spiritual as worldly, it does not just mean to be nice and charitable to people, it means to take the right actions with God - to pray, to live according to God's will. Even the worldly good works are a sign of the love and dedication a person has for God. God is first, all else flows from that relationship (the Great Commandment). Any indication of a relationship with God was absent form your post.

 

No... some want to believe those limits include IMPOSING their beliefs. It is obvious. And those are people to fight, hard.

The tone I sense in your expressions here... don't communicate that very well.

Okay.

Sorry, but I read what you have written and sense 'hostility' or 'disdain' toward gay people; a harsh commanding feel with religion weaved into things.

But your approach toward others who don't believe as you do (if they are believers), is somewhat harsh and uncivil; cold.

And there again, is that (rigid) arrogance. That notion that YOU have "Christianity" correct and others do not. Really, that is just terrible... in my view.

Being a homosexual is NOT a "lifestyle". To call it a lifestyle is to be nonsensical. It is a sexual-orientation... not a "lifestyle".

You cannot demand respect/trust; you must earn that. Even so, I do honor overall civility in a forum such as this.

Let me be clear:

I don't want anyone's religious beliefs, to be incorporated into LAWS who are imposed upon ALL citizens. If people want religion, they should congregate in their own groups and places of worship.

There's that arrogant harshness AGAIN. And I'm not particularly aligned with any "associates" here, except in the sense we are ALL human beings. I don't even know what you mean by that.

No. That is not generally true, and you should probably realize that, by now.

What I and others don't want, is for people with personal or religious beliefs about human sexuality (or other things), to impose those upon myself or others. Religion is a PERSONAL thing; very personal.

If you want to discriminate to such a degree that you are singling people out for their sexuality... then I'd say you have a right to go 'marginalize' yourself. Go to where you are comfortable, knowing that people and their values are lined up in little rows, like robots running on 'tracks' in a set pattern.

Truth is, as long as you live on this planet, people are going to want more freedom and liberty to be themselves. No one wants RELIGION or morals pushed upon them.

 

You mean this post? #340

I don't think accepting Christ as God is something somebody can do and still be atheist.

If you don't mean this post what post do you mean?

My beliefs haven't changed.

If you wish to be civil, I'm more than willing.

In What post?

When did I say that?

I think you have me confused with somebody else.

I said nothing that implied that. I really think you are confused.

I wouldn't get into that deep of a conversation with you.

 

I am willing to listen to you. I will extend that courtesy. I'm happy too. But you have to explain these claims.

Maybe I'm not seeing something from my perspective. I'm willing to accept that.

So explain how Johnny or I or anybody we associate with have told you how to live, or run your business, or practice your beliefs?

 

Show one post I have written in which I state I want religion to set the law, or I want to force non-Christians to follow Christian rules.

But - if you have been reading my posts - you will find numerous posts in which I state the govt must treat everyone equally, no special rules for certain people, no social engineering.

Your problem with me is that I do not endorse homosexuality, I consider it a sin and gay marriage an affront to God. Nowhere have I claimed that homosexuals should be "fixed", punished, pushed in the closet, denied the ability to select their partner and have the govt treat that partner as a heterosexual couple is treated.

And I support true personal liberty, which not only means a gay person can live their lifestyle and get married and start a business, but that a religious person can live their life as they see fit including running their church and business as they see fit.

What it comes down to is that you claim to want personal freedom, but you really only want it for yourself. I want personal freedom for everyone including the people I disagree with, and that's what you don't like about my posts.

 

You are correct, the post went to you when it was meant for another. I apologize, I get many posts a day, and sometimes signals get crossed.

 

If this is true then this argument is a waste of time. As a gay person, what you just said right here is all I'm asking for. I personally am not asking for you or other conservative Christians to suddenly condone my sexual orientation, but if you respect it enough to let me live my life, then in my opinion you've done your part.

 

Look man, I'm NOT going to pull out a pen and pad and analyze your posts as though we are participating in deliberations for selecting jurors in a criminal case.

But what I am trying my hardest to do, is communicate to you as a regular human being... taking in the things you have said over a relatively long amount of time.

That last post was to share with you, how I would generally see you as a person I've encountered in any of the millions of situations I've been in; to include nearly 40 years in the military and decades as a
church-going, Christ-emulating believer.

I see what you write and paste it upon reality as I know it; I'm not playing any academic games with you. I'm telling you what I would in passing to any friend or person in a nice mall on a regular day.

Honestly, if a person that disagrees with you come away unscathed... I would be surprised. As things are, I'm happy that there is at least the reasonable/relative distance of anonymity and the internet between us. I'm sure, if you knew me and conversed with me regularly... you'd be pissing me off quite a bit, unless I avoided you. I'm human... and I want to be honest about that.

 

I get it. And a certain interlocutor here, isn't listening or 'something'.

 

When has anyone not let you live your life. Please be specific.

 

But not all of the LGBT crowd thinks the way you just described. That's the issue now. Gays have their equality, but they did not declare victory and go home to live their lives. Now the activists have moved to the next battle which is to remove various legal protections to the protection of religious practice - they immediately went after tax exempt status of any church which would not perform a gay wedding. They quickly put that on hold due to the public backlash.

And how far does your tolerance go? Is it far enough to allow a Christian bakery to turn away a gay wedding? Or do you demand that Christians must closet their religion while homosexuals have free reign in the public square?

That's the issue now, its not the oppression of gays, its the oppression or religion. You say I have done my part, there is an obligation for you to do your part as well.

 

First, this is an anonymous forum with limited space. Posts have to be direct and short with little room for allowance for the wide variations in intellectual, emotional, and maturity levels of the many readers. As a result, there is a lot of room for people to see unintended insults. A thick skin and tolerant attitude is handy.

In "meat space", I have conversations about religion with all kinds of people. When you can adjust a discussion in real time based on expression, tone, etc., it goes very differently face to face than in an anonymous forum. And in real life, where people know who a person is and can see their actions, their words take on a different weight than in this forum where we are all just short little blurbs of comments.

Second, on the posts, my point is that I have never advocated for punishing people for believing differently than I do. My attitude is that if you don't like my church or my business, then don't involve yourself in it. That goes for me too. If you want a bakery that only caters to gays, I won't be there, but I won't take you to court either.

 

Except of course- that isn't happening at all.

Except for that.

 

No worries.

 

google "gay church tax exempt status" and get educated

 

Or I can point out that you made a claim you can't back up.

 

I have heard about revoking tax exempt status from churches for quite a few years. The complaint that it costs the government money to exempt churches and so forth. It's government subsidizing blah blah blah.

No. It is not subsidizing and it costs the government nothing. They don't post churches. Churches simply dont pay them. That isn't cost that is just lack of income.

I find the people that ask for this don't understand that the government dissent own the wealth in our nation. I don't think they know the first thing about our republic and I don't think it's really a threat.

 

Nonsense. If this were 90's internet/fora, I'd almost buy that. Even so, these threads can run for hundreds of pages... the "space" constraints aren't so limited (as if this were "Twitter").

People expect you to make sense and be realistic; if you aren't... they are not wrong to protest that.

The facts of reality make it clear, that none of this topic being discussed nor those stemming from the same, are simple. If you THINK that you can come at this with a narrow view and bumper-sticker language... then you end up having the same problems as Donald Trump and the fictional "Archie Bunker", you might say something entertaining but not very astute or realistic.

 

Immediately after the obergefell decision came out, the gay activists started the claim that if a church will not marry or hire a gay person (that very quickly turned into LGBT person) then they are violating the law and should be denied tax exempt status and prosecuted.

Education is wonderful thing, you should try it.

 

Which activists?

Why is it that you are always silent when I ask you to name names, or cite incident?

Honestly I'm starting to think it is because you are lying.

 

Because its been asked in multiple threads, and answered, and people that constantly ask the same question indicate they are not paying attention and not worth the effort of a response.

But just for you

From Felix Salmon, LGBT activist http://fusion.net/story/158096/does-your-church-ban-gay-marriage-then-it-should-start-paying-taxes/ He argues that churches that do not marry gays should lose their tax exempt status. Not all churches, not all organizations, just churches that do not perform gay weddings.

Jeran Artery, gay activist and Chairman (?) of Wyoming Equality, put this on his facebook page immediately after the obergefell decision

“Churches that lobby to have freedoms and rights taken away from ANYONE should absolutely have their 501(c)3 status revoked!!”

You can find this type of hatred if you simply search for it.

Another article which makes a similar argument but dressed up to look reasonable is here http://time.com/3939143/nows-the-time-to-end-tax-exemptions-for-religious-institutions/ His basic argument is "So yes, the logic of gay-marriage rights could lead to a reexamination of conservative churches’ tax exemptions ..." Notice its about conservative churches, not all churches, or all tax exempt organizations.

 

I know there have been a few instances of self proclaimed gay activist that have called for the revocation of tax exempt status from churches not marrying homosexuals but there is effectively 0% chance of this happening. Several churches in the US still deny marriage between interracial couples with no danger of losing status. I do agree however, any organization (or church) actively lobbying the government should not be classified as 501(c)(3).

What I don't understand is how people against gay rights can use a small handful of examples to paint 15 million citizens as being involved. It's as bad as labeling all Christians for the actions of Westboro Baptist Church. Maybe you can enlighten me? How do you justify using a few fringe examples to justify whatever you are trying to prove?

 

What activists?
What law were they claiming was violated?

There is no law requiring any church to marry anyone.

Now there are good church going people- and church leaders- who actually call for laws to discriminate against gays- hell there are pastors calling for gays to be put to death

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-calls-for-killing-gays-to-end-aids/19929973/
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/0...mega-chruch-calls-on-gays-to-be-put-to-death/

See how I did that- I provided examples for what I say- you might like to try backing up your claims some time.