Hillel vs Shammai and the separation of the Messianic Jews from the Rabbinic Jews????

DennisTate · Mar 9, 2024

OK.... AM I AN IDIOT TO TAKE THE IDEA SERIOUSLY THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE MAY BE LARGELY DESCENDED FROM THE MESSIANIC JEWISH COMMUNITY OF THE FIRST CENTURY.... WHO DID NOT JOIN IN THE BAR KOCHBA REVOLT... AND THUS.... WERE NOT EXPELLED FROM THE HOLY LAND BY THE ROMANS AFTER THE REVOLT WAS CRUSHED?????

This topic fits with how the question of marriage and divorce... may have played a huge role in the separation of the disciples of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus from the followers of Rabbi Akiba????

Mr. Tsvi Misinai's research has helped to lead me inexorably toward this conclusion over these past ten years or so.

WOW!!!!!

A couple of months ago I ran into a writing on one aspect of the conflict between:

"The Disputes of Hillel and Shammai .... Traditionally, the sages have characterized the differences in rulings of the two schools as more restrictive on the one hand and more lenient on the other. Bet Shammai is generally more stringent or restrictive, while Bet Hillel is more lenient ( Tosefta. Sukkah 2:3)."
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One part of the conflict was what justification would be valid for an ethical Rabbinical Jewish husband to divorce his wife?????

If I remember correctly... John the Baptist and Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus were closer to the line of thought of Shammai when it came to divorce....

and the Scribes and the Pharisees were terrified of the implications of NOT being free to divorce their wives for virtually any reason that they felt
was valid......

Here are some quotations by a writer who dealt with this topic in a way that I had never read until recently:

......

Are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's grandchildren: Palestinians?????

DennisTate said: ↑
Mr. Scott Alexander Carroll brings up a major reason as to why the Rabbinic Jewish community eventually completely separated from the Messianic Jewish community who followed Rabbi Yeshua :

Scott Alexander Carroll.....

"Final Note
One additional question is why this particular trap? Other than simple
opportunity, what might have motivated the Pharisees and scribes to
concoct this unusual legal case?

The answer may rest in Jesus' public position on divorce, which would
naturally involve the question of adultery and its scope. As Mark records:
And Jesus said to them,
"Whoever puts away his wife and marries another, commits adultery
against her.
And if a woman puts away her husband, and is married to another, she also
commits adultery." (Mark 10:11-12)

This last statement, while obviously equalitarian, is an innovative
interpretation of the Law not foreseen by the Pharisees. But more
importantly, against the background of the beheading of John the Baptist at
the prompting of Queen Herodias it is unexpectedly electrifying:
The Queen may have tried to bypass the criticisms of John by divorcing
Herod's brother and remarrying Herod. But Jesus destroys the value of this
plan instantly by publicly preaching that this also would be adultery! Now
also, if Herod put Queen Herodias or her daughter away, to appease the
crowds who believed John was a prophet, this could have placed either
woman in the Pharisees' hands.

THE LAWS OF DEUTERONMY

The PA and Deut. 13:6-18 (Recap)
This helped resolve a puzzle concerning a part of John 8:1-11
As discussed in the "300 years of Commentary" booklet , I would like to

expand and credit Shabir Ally for his own accidental and unintended tip-
off.

He is a muslim apologist who critiques the Bible and prefers the Quran.
The issue concerns why Jesus used the exact expression here,
"The sinless one among you, let him first cast a stone at her..." (Jn. 8:7)
For previously, (without a second look at a certain passage in
Deuteronomy), I found that this remained a puzzle, because it does not
directly quote an O.T. Law or offer an explanation for Jesus' apparent
demand.

The Law of Moses did not require "sinless" men to initiate stonings.
So many have thought that Jesus is here (as apparently in other places)
adding to the law or raising it up to a new higher and stricter standard.
But this new insight which I will offer below, may suggest that Jesus
actually wrote out a reference to Deut. 13:6-21.

If this is the case, then His 'incomplete' quote needs to be taken in this
context, and we need to complete the idea ourselves from the Law.

That is, Jesus may have said little, that is, just enough to call the
Deuteronomic Law into memory for the scribes and Pharisees.

Jesus' Shorthand Responses:
When we (often) as modern readers assume the passage is 'self-sufficient'
or 'self-explanatory' on its face, we can make serious mistakes, or at least
miss the historical context and deeper meaning of Jesus.

An example of this is marriage, where Jesus on a few occasions appears to
give a new law or rule on marriage and divorce, i.e., divorce is only lawful
for the reason of actual adultery/fornication.

Knowing that there was a vigorous debate among the two major Rabbinical
schools on divorce, and that they and the Jews sought Jesus' opinion on it,
makes Jesus' statements much clearer and provides the scope for their
application.

Jesus on Divorce:
'Divorce was a controversial topic in Jesus' day, with two main schools of
thought, centered around two of its most famous proponents.
The first was the school of Rabbi Shammai (a more strict and unpopular
view) and second was the school of Rabbi Hillel (a more lax and popular
view).

Under the thinking of Hillel, "a man could divorce his wife if she spoiled
his dinner, if she spun, or went with unbound hair, or spoke to men in
the streets, if she spoke disrespectfully of his parents in his presence,
or if she was a brawling woman whose voice could be heard in the
next house.

Rabbi Akiba even went the length of saying...that a man could divorce
his wife if he found a woman whom he liked better and considered
more beautiful." (Barclay)
Each school of thought understood that the Mosaic law gave permission for
divorce in Deuteronomy 24:1:
When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she
finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in
her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and
sends her out of his house.

Each side knew and believed Deuteronomy 24:1; the question was, "What
constitutes uncleanness?"

The school of Rabbi Shammai understood that uncleanness meant sexual
immorality, and said this was the only valid reason for divorce.

The school of Rabbi Hillel understood uncleanness to mean any sort of
indiscretion; even to the point where for some rabbis, burning a husband's
breakfast was considered valid grounds for divorce.

So in their question, the Pharisees tried to get Jesus to side with one
teaching or the other. If He agreed with the lax school of Rabbi Hillel, it
was clear that Jesus did not take the Law of Moses seriously. If He agreed
with the strict school of Rabbi Shammai, then Jesus might become
unpopular with the multitude, who generally liked access to an easy
divorce. The religious leaders had reason to believe they had caught Jesus
on the horns of a dilemma.

The Pharisees wanted to talk about divorce and rabbinical opinions, but
Jesus wanted to go back to the Scriptures...
"By answering the question, not from Shammai or Hillel, but from
Moses, our blessed Lord defeated their malice, and confounded their
devices." (Clarke)
Jesus interpreted the meaning of the word uncleanness in the Mosaic Law,
showing that it refers to sexual immorality, not just anything that might
displease the husband. Therefore, divorce - and the freedom to remarry
without sin - is only permitted in the case of sexual immorality.
To this permission for divorce, the Apostle Paul added the case of
abandonment by an unbelieving spouse (1st Cor. 7:15).

We note that incompatibility, not loving each other anymore, brutality, and
misery are not grounds for divorce, though they may be proper grounds for
a separation and consequent "celibacy within marriage" as Paul indicates
in 1 Corinthians 7:11. These words of Paul show us that a Christian couple
may in fact split up for reasons that do not justify a Biblical divorce. It may
be because of a misguided sense of spirituality; it may be because of
general unhappiness, or conflict, or abuse, or misery, addiction, or poverty.
Paul recognizes (without at all encouraging) that one might depart in such
circumstance, but they cannot consider themselves divorced, with the
right to remarry, because their marriage had not split up for reasons that
justify a Biblical divorce."

[Scott Alexander Carroll, booklet, Taken in Adultery: But Whose? A Believers Commentary on John 8:1-11]
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http://www.politicalforum.com/index...h-to-satanists.517921/page-19#post-1074698092
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Are the Palestinians the Jews NOT expelled from Judaea after Bar Kochba Revolt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsvi_Misinai

Tsvi Jekhorin Misinai (Hebrew: צבי מסיני; born 15 April 1946) is an Israeli researcher, writer, historian, computer scientist and entrepreneur. A pioneer of the Israeli software industry,[1] he now spends most of his time researching and documenting the common Hebrew roots he believes shared by world Jewry and the Palestinians (including Arab citizens of Israel).[2]
....

Tsvi Misinai was born in 1946 in Jerusalem, Mandatory Palestine to Ashkenazi Jewish parents who immigrated from Ternopil in Galicia (now Ukraine) in 1939.[3] He graduated in Physics from the Haifa Technion in 1968. He was the first Israeli to receive the Rothschild Award for industrial development in the field of software in 1992.[1]

Misinai is the founder of Sapiens International Corporation and served as its president until 1994. He embedded the principle of Positive Thinking in computers and invented the Rule Based Object Oriented technology for developing data processing applications, the development of which he started in the Weizmann Institute of Science in 1972.[4]

Misinai self-identifies as a secular Jew and currently resides in Rehovot.

Misinai first heard about the "Hebrew origins of Palestinians" theory from his father, Kha'yim Avraham, who served in the Royal Artillery in the Second World War. His interest was rekindled after the 1991 Gulf War, when there was talk about a new order in the Middle East. After the failure of the Oslo Accords that led to the commencement of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in 2000, he abandoned his career as a Computer scientist and devoted his entire life to investigating the Jewish roots of Palestinians. He now spends his entire time tracking down Palestinians who acknowledge their Jewish heritage, and lobbying ministers, ambassadors, religious leaders and activists in both communities.[5] Misinai, and his team of Arabs and Jews, have embarked on a mission of trying to bring peace to Israel through a unique and controversial project called "The Engagement".
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.....

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Tsvi Jekhorin Misinai

https://www.facebook.com/tsvi.misinai

·

The head of the Dubai police preaches the Arabs to see Israel as friend and not an enemy. To enable Israeli control of the Palestinians. A lot of uproar in the Arab world:
Like most rulers of the states in the Arab Peninsula, like the Saudi royal family. the Kuwaiti rulling family and the Bakhrain ruler, in Dubai and Kattar most of the population are of a Jewish origin. But in constrat to other states there, the population of these two states, some of the world's richest people, are even today practicing Jews and many even know Hebrew. Allah Hue Akbar!
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Hillel vs Shammai and the separation of the Messianic Jews from the Rabbinic Jews????

Did the debate over divorce separate the Messianic Jews from the Rabbinic Jews???

No

Yes

In a way I do hope so because surely in our time new info on this topic can bring back together???

DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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Hillel vs Shammai and the separation of the Messianic Jews from the Rabbinic Jews????

Did the debate over divorce separate the Messianic Jews from the Rabbinic Jews???

No

Yes

In a way I do hope so because surely in our time new info on this topic can bring back together???

DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

Share This Page

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