Hiroshima: the Crime that keeps on paying

Those papers are real; look it up.

And Japan was at war with China at the time. The people of the US were not waiting for another war, but in order to get them on board, the US government provoked a war with Japan by boycotting them and halting their oil. Japan had to attack, or they would have bled dry within a few months and the US knew it was under way... after Pearl Harbor had been hit, over a million people volunteered for the army within weeks.

 

And the end game was us an the allies ending the reign of Hitler. Still, we were attacked first. So why was Japan at war with China?

And I am asking a serious question, I do not know much about the Japan/China feud.

 

Japan was Imperialistic.They wanted to take China over at that time.Japan also had the vastly superior technology to do it with,too.
Many atrocities were committed by Japan in China.
That being said,this thread is crap and I wouldn't mind if it was all deleted.

 

agree, looking forward, I say any country that uses nukes, every other country needs to nuke the one using them... nukes should never be used again, they were tested in the past, but never should be used again

if say Iran or NK use nukes, we wipe them off the planet

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SO there was pretty good reason to keep Japan on it's heels and stop them from committing even more serious atrocities . On that note, it would be cool if China was actually more like Japan of now haha.

But seriously, it sounds like we did the right thing in both matters of the boycott and our means of ending WWII .


Thanks for the info though, now I want to actually read about this.

 

Agreed, no country should have nukes as they stand a ton more dangerous than the ones dropped in Japan. A novel idea that needs to be outlawed and severely punished for having them.

 

I don't think either of them are that stupid to use nukes. However if a radical get's their hands on one, that might be a problem.

 

yeah, that could be as then they have no country to return the favor, not sure what we do then

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everyone accept us right? we can have them

course when the world hears Trump talk they probably don't like that idea either

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Well... the problem is that "victors write the history", and that's what clearly happened after WW II.

However, now with the internet available, the Truth about WW II is getting out 7 decades later.

Check what former US Marine and political activist Ken O' Keefe recently had to say:

[video=youtube;dIjV4ogERhs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIjV4ogERhs[/video]

Don't know much about the Japan/China war, maybe interesting to take a look at.

 

Lol no, I believe we should relieve the world of all nukes including ours.

And to be honest I am more worried about Iran than I am of Trump. Hell im more worried about Hillary than I am of Iran.

 

I think you have nothing to worry about Iran:

 

Technically they are a murder. There is a killer, a killed one, a weapon, a motive, e.t.c. Or give your own description of what it is.

Don’t get me wrong, not trying to bug you or something, but even certain laws of physics do not apply everywhere in the world, not much to say about laws of war .

Curtis LeMay – responsible for air raid on Tokio (100 000 civ casualties):
>>>Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.... Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier.<<<

So this person clearly understands that he is in violation of human moral boundaries. He places himself above those. He understands the consequences. He is ready to pay the price for his actions if fate will turn the other way. This is no Internet forum USA hero. This is a killer that is doing his job in the name of what he believes in.

Dig it up in google, how his ideas affected the dissension makers. The story is long, will take too much time to post it here…

Brits are allies, you share the glory with them and you share the responsibility for sins. Don’t try to be all nice and beautiful by dumping the dirty work on others.
Precision bombing does not mean that the bullet hits the target. Precision bombing of the time, meant that it is more precise than the night bombing. Nothing more.
US failed to take off due to weather conditions on the first day and Britts went alone.
US dropped bombs on 14th feb, 311 B17 (indeed the target wear the railroad facilities, managed to stop the operation of the station for 3 days). In such conditions it is normal to hit the target with 1-5 bombers, the rest of payloads spread around as they should. Brits wear targeting the stadium, this does not mean they are against sports or something.
2 March – 406 B17 940tons HE, 141 tons Ins
17 April – 580 B17 1554tons HE, 165 tons Ins
And check the firestorm link, it depicts US actions In Europe. In Japan US destroyed 40% of 66 cities.

Leaflets was dropped everywhere, but they are dropped to screw enemy moral, not to help them fight us. But this case it is different. US was training Jap AA service not to raise city alarm in case when solitary B29 shows up
The primary targets are:
- Testing of a new weapon on a live target.
- Demonstration of the new weapon to “allies”

Combatant losses in Hiroshima are estimated to be 20 000.
Cost of Manhattan project is 2.4 billion.
By comparison, this is 90% of US total spending on small arms for the same period. And 33% of total spending on tanks. (During the war US produced more tanks than USSR and Germany combined). And you want to spend this on 20 000 Japanese soldiers? Nuke is a game changer for the next century, this was purely a political decision.

If you are still not satisfied check Operation Meetinghouse. The X was on the densely populated area.

 

Get that propo outta here. the world would be better off without Iran in it.

 

You have been watching too much FOX news man.

 

No, because I don't watch fox news. I tend to stay away from most MSM.

 

No such evidence.

There were no negotiations to ignore. We told Japan what the surrender terms were going to be. If not for the bombs, we would have imposed those exact same surrender terms via invasion.

That's a question for Japan. They are the ones who refused to surrender after the first one.

The historical record is very clear that there were official estimates that an invasion of Japan would result in 500,000 to 1,000,000 American deaths and millions more gravely wounded.

America had no control over when Japan was willing to surrender, and had no way of forcing them to do so beyond attacking them as hard as we could.

Actually it is clear that until Japan surrendered, no one in the US government had any idea what it would take to make them surrender.

Alperovitz is no historian. His writings are intentionally deceptive.


Regarding your repeated quotes of things published long after the end of the war, unless you can show convincing evidence of time machines, these writings had no influence on wartime thinking.

 

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were well provoked by Pearl Harbor and Bataan.

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Japan provoked Hiroshima and Nagasaki by going to war with the US and committing horrendous atrocities.

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Both sides of that graphic are untrue. Iran massacres innocent people in many countries. And the few on your list where the US actually was involved in the war that it accuses us of, we were the good guys.

 

It's clear that you have been watching too much Hollywood movies.

 

No. Wartime strikes on military targets are not murder.

When a civilian is killed in the course of a wartime attack on a military target, that is called collateral damage.

The Nazis thought that the laws of war did not apply to them. It didn't stop them from hanging after the war.

We are not in any way responsible for the actions of others.

Precision bombing means that we were doing our very best to get our bombs on military targets, and were not targeting civilians.

The timing of the bombing does not change that US bombers were using precision targeting to try to hit military targets.

The US had nothing to do with any firestorm in Europe. European firestorms were all started by the UK.

It was the only way to destroy the weapons factories within those cities.

The leaflets warned the civilians to flee because we were coming to bomb their city.

That was hardly something that we were trying to do.

No, the reason for the bombs was to make Japan surrender. We really really really wanted them to surrender.

There was no decision. That would have been like holding a meeting to decide whether to have our soldiers carry guns. No one in the US government was so goofy.

Right where all the weapon factories were.

 

Idk how anyone could be aware of the Okinawa campaign and think that the Japanese will to fight was gone.

The bomb saved lives. Invading would have necessitated killing far more. Hard decisions need to be made in war - civilians today are too soft.

 

Basically, the Second World War was a contest to inflict the maximum damage on the enemy and bombing campaigns in Europe and Asia were designed to kill tens of thousands of civilians on the ground and Hiroshima was not exceptional in this regard. The Bombing of Tokyo in 1945 actually killed more people than the atomic bomb did in Hiroshima. Since carpet bombing was an acceptable practice at the time, it's meaningless to apply today's definition of war crimes on what happened in the 1940s.

 

What is collateral damage in regard of a civilian killed in an attack on a legit military target? If not a manslaughter, than what it is?

I am missing the point…

If your Allie is fabricating very nice soap with very good PH, out of fat of the human infants, than you are guilty for supporting him.

Neg. Precision bombing was a marketing term for daybombing compared to nightboimbing, needed to explain high losses. B17 was state of art, above any bomber of its time (when released). US considered they could defend themselves in daytime, they wear wrong.
A flight of 4 B17 with HE payload is sufficient to shut down any railroad station given the ability to bomb from alt of 2-3km. The hit probability will be around 90%. But probability of survival on this altitude was very slim. So no, when 99.9% of bombs miss the target, this is no where near Precision bombing if you are not using term Precision for marketing purposes only.

Incendiary payload, same as brits, same patterns, same tactics, same targets, same operation
If no firestorms than what? Flowers, rainbows, unicorns? USAF Bomber Command brought unicorns to the suffering population of Germany while it was bombed out by the Evil Brittish lion?

This is ridiculous

Wonder how did they manage to do the same in times of ancient Rome when B17 was not invented just yet…Democracy was already there…

According to standard drill, appearance of a bomber above a city triggers Air Alarm. This means that the entire city, stops production and rushes to shelters. US started sending solitary B29, dropping leaflets, each city they passed had to shut down production for an hour or so. This hurts economy much more than bombs. Eventually Japs AA decided not to raise the alarm in case of solitary B29. This have doubled or tripled the casualty rate among civilians in Hiroshima as nuke (especially in case of areal detonation) could not do much damage to underground shelters. This is the reason why nuke was deployed by a solitary B29 although a flight of 4 B29 would increase the safety of a carrier B29 by many times.

United States Strategic Bombing Survey – 1000 member comity (100% official) (70%military specialists) surveyed the outcome of the bombing.
>>>Hiroshima was irrelevant to surrender.<<<


—&#8201;Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet
>>>The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.<<<

—&#8201;Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, 1950, [85]
>>>The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons ... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.<<<

—&#8201;Major General Curtis LeMay, XXI Bomber Command, September 1945, [86]
>>>The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.<<<

—&#8201;Fleet Admiral William Halsey, Jr., 1964,
>>>The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment ... It was a mistake to ever drop it ... [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it ...<<<

These are the opinions of people who won the war.
Really. I think it is not we - too soft, I think there is something wrong with you guys…

Missing the point... It was not Truman decision?

Below is the partial list of US runs on Tokio. When they target a factory, the aim of the mission is factory. When they target residential, the aim of the mission is residential.
Weapon factory… Do you have any sort of understanding what is required to manufacture a 6.5mm round?

• 24 November 1944: 111 B-29s hit an aircraft factory on the rim of the city.
• 27 November 1944: 81 B-29s hit the dock and urban area and 13 targets of opportunity.
• 29–30 November 1944: two incendiary raids on industrial areas, burning 2,773 structures.
• 19 February 1945: 119 B-29s hit port and urban area.
• 24 February 1945: 229 B-29s plus over 1600 carrier-based planes.
• 25 February 1945: 174 B-29s dropping incendiaries destroy 28,000 buildings.
• 4 March 1945: 159 B-29s hit urban area
• 9 March 1945: 334 B-29s dropping incendiaries destroy 267,000 buildings; 25% of city (Operation Meetinghouse) killing some 100,000.
• 2 April 1945: 100 B-29s bomb the Nakajima aircraft factory.
• 3 April 1945: 68 B-29s bomb the Koizumi aircraft factory and urban areas in Tokyo.
• 13 April 1945: 327 B-29s bomb the arsenal area.
• 20 July 1945: 1 B-29 drops a Pumpkin bomb (bomb with same ballistics as the Fat Man nuclear bomb) through overcast aiming at but missing the Imperial Palace.
• 8 August 1945: 60 B-29s bomb the aircraft factory and arsenal.
• 10 August 1945: 70 B-29s bomb the arsenal complex.




No offence, please. You are just repeating same statements over and over again, no proofs, no links to interesting info, no conclusions. Personally I feel like talking to a parrot (again, no offence please). If all this is not really interesting to you, may be, we should end this one sided discussion?

 

One major problem, why kill many innocent Iranians to accomplish this ?
And there are lots of innocent Iranians !

 

any country that uses nukes pays the price, in the long run it saves lives

 

Your absolutely right.

The Tokyo Firebombing killed many more Japanese than the dropping of the nukes.

And let's face it....it took the dropping of TWO...2....Nuclear Bombs before the Jap's would surrender.

It would have cost the lives of MILLIONS if we had to invade mainland Japan.

AA