Hiroshima: the Crime that keeps on paying

That is a rather Rum & Faulty list.

It has fatal errors.

- - - Updated - - -

You need not to use the Term; Japs,
it is quite Offensive !!!

 

This is a problem.

Over 70% of all Iranian's are under the age of 30 and over 95% of all Iranian's not only want ties with the U.S. they want CLOSE TIES.

I think Iran will very soon become a Democracy as when the Old Religious Guard dies out the kids will change things.

North Korea is a F@#KING PROBLEM!!

That population is absolutely indoctrinated to follow the GOD LEADER anywhere.

If North Korea used nukes.....we would absolutely wipe North Korea out of existence.

AA

- - - Updated - - -

Not for my family members who died in that war.

AA

 

yet Hillary is talking about obliterating Iran.
I say give that time.There are plenty of good people in Iran.
Unless they kidnap another planeful of people again.
Then go over there and kill all involved.Still don't nuke the citizenry.That's ridiculous.
We would not have to wipe North Koreans out of existence,just the bad leader.

 

Everyone has forgotten how We treated many Japanese American Patriots, rounded them up, stuck them into POW camps, and how many Japanese Americans fought with honor against Japan and other objectives during WW-ll

 

If you're talking about McCarthyism.I haven't.
Really there are not that many Japanese people in the US.I would guess they are the ultimate minority these days.
Why can I count to 10 in Japanese?
You know what? All Muslims in the US need to be vetted;yet not in the way of McCarthyism,discreetly.
I haven't seen a Japanese person in forever.

 

That is no excuse to continue to perpetrate Bigotry, I have losses too, yet I have extended Japanese family and will never condone perpetual Bigotry, I respect their fallen too.

News Flash; Japan is no longer the Enemy, the War is over, they are Our Friends now.

 

Look....saying the term Japs....short for Japanese is HARDLY derogatory.

If you had ever been to Japan...and I have many times and I will being going there for business in a few months....the words they use for American's and Foreigners is derogatory in the extreme.

Foreign Devil is one of them.

AA

 

Collateral damage is not any sort of crime whatsoever.

Manslaughter is a peacetime term for civilian acts. Nothing to do with the conduct of war.

You had erroneously suggested that there were parts of the world where the laws of war do not apply.

Not unless I'm trying to help them commit their crime.

Precision bombing could be done at night. The same radar that we used to guide our bombers during the day also worked at night.

The fact that WWII technology was not perfect and we could miss our targets does not change the fact that US bombers were doing their utmost to get their bombs on the appropriate targets.

Not the same patterns. Not the same tactics. Nowhere near the same targets.

UK bombers deliberately spread incendiaries throughout city centers in a deliberate attempt to start firestorms.

US bombers used precision bombing to try to land bombs on military targets within those cities.

US bombers used precision targeting to try to drop bombs on military targets.

It is a fact that US bombers did not cause a single firestorm in Europe.

I don't recall if the Axis caused any firestorms in Europe, but it is a fact that 100% of the firestorms caused by the Allies in Europe were started by British bombers intentionally spreading incendiaries throughout city centers.

Defenders in Roman times had much less sophisticated defenses than WWII Germany had. It was a lot easier to march an army right up to a city and capture it.

It also made it possible for the bomb to kill tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers in the center of Hiroshima, who otherwise would have been safely in shelter.

However, the notion that we were deliberately trying to trick people into being out in the open for the A-bomb is nonsense.

There was no attempt to trick people into being out in the open when the bomb was dropped.

Conclusions (reached only after the war was over) that the bombs ultimately didn't have any influence on the surrender, do not contradict the fact that the reason why we dropped the bombs was to damage Japan until they surrendered.

"What did we intend to achieve by dropping the bombs" and "did the bombs cause Japan to surrender (as assessed after the war had ended)" are two entirely different questions.

The statement from Nimitz is factually incorrect. Japan did not offer to surrender until after both A-bombs had been dropped. Halsey's comment about the reason why we dropped the bombs is also factually incorrect.

The point was incorrect. There was no decision.

The idea that there was some sort of decision in the government regarding whether to use the A-bombs is fiction.

No one in the military or the government was arguing against using the bombs (well except for Ike, but his dissent was so feeble that no one was even aware of it).

There were no missions targeting residences. There were missions targeting large areas that included residences in them, but the point was to destroy the factories that were also within the targeted area.

I don't know. I haven't done a study of the question, but I could make some guesses.

The thing about me posting facts is, facts don't change from post to post.

Generally links to proof in internet discussions are only supplied when someone requests proof of a specific point. It would be untenable for everyone to provide Wikipedia-like footnotes for every single post. If you would like me to provide a link regarding any particular point, ask, and I'll see what I can come up with.

I am very interested in countering unfair/untrue accusations against the US. I've found that the best way to counter is to post the truth.

Conclusions? I conclude that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets attacked at the height of the most brutal war in human history.

 

No, it is just a matter of me being familiar with all the facts.

 

The japs should not have started the war.

Far more offensive but no one is crying about it in childish fonts

 

Correct, there is no legal understanding of collateral damage, this term does not set any boundaries, this is a media term for housewifes, not legal. Nobody knows what it is and what it means. This way there is no possibility to determine if the collateral is to high, or OK, if it is a crime, or not. It depends on your side. Meaningless.

Good. But you have not answered the question. Please do. If not manslaughter, than what it is?

You mean the power of international law? You mean that In case Germany would win in ww2, Laws of War would not be twisted to support the winner?

Nope. Precision bombing cannot be done at night, it cannot be done during daytime from high altitude, it can only be done in the newspapers of the time, and on internet forums among those who do not understand what areal bombardment is.

Nope. It is possible for a level bomber (for a factory sised target). If you want precision, descent to 2-3km and have fun…

Bombing of Dresden 14-15 feb
>>> The report by the 1st Bombardment Division's commander to his commander states that the targeting sequence was the centre of the built up area in Dresden if the weather was clear. If clouds obscured Dresden but Chemnitz was clear, Chemnitz was the target. If both were obscured, they would bomb the centre of Dresden using H2X radar<<<
So
Primary – city build up area.
If clouds then Target 2 – Chemnitz
If clouds then Target 3 – centre of Dresden with H2X


Payload – 60%HE, 40% Inc. Same as Brits.
>>>The mix of bombs for the Dresden raid was about 40% incendiaries—much closer to the RAF city busting mix than that the USAAF usually used in precision bombardment.[59] Taylor compares this 40% mix with the raid on Berlin on 3 February, where the ratio was 10% incendiaries. This was a common mix when the USAAF anticipated cloudy conditions over the target<<<


Results:
379 flight group – marshalling yards (the only legit target)
303, 92, 306, 379, 384, 457 – city centre via H2X
>>>316 B-17 Flying Fortresses bombed Dresden, dropping 771 tons of bombs.[61][62] The rest misidentified their targets. Sixty bombed Prague, dropping 153 tons of bombs on the Czech city while others bombed Brux and Pilsen.[62] The 379th bombardment group started to bomb Dresden at 12:17 aiming at marshalling yards in the Friedrichstadt district west of the city centre as the area was not obscured by smoke and cloud. The 303rd group arrived over Dresden 2 minutes after the 379th found that their view was obscured by clouds so they bombed Dresden using H2X radar to target this location. The groups that followed the 303rd, (92nd, 306th, 379th, 384th and 457th) also found Dresden obscured by clouds and they too used H2X to locate the target. H2X aiming caused the groups to bomb inaccurately with a wide dispersal over the Dresden area. The last group to bomb Dresden was the 306th and they had finished by 12:30 <<<

If you are willing to oppose above, I am asking for any sort of proof on the existence of weapon factories in the most populated areas that you are talking about.

You know, you cant be “partially” pregnant, its one way or the other… Ether way you want to inflict damage, or you do not drop the bomb. I guess you get the idea. It takes a month to rebuild a factory in war time, it takes years to find, teach, grow, a properly educated weapon production specialist that is capable of effective production of any sort of sophisticated equipment…

Well the facts are here for you, naturally you can always pull the blanket over your head and hope the monster to go away. These are one of darkest deeds in US history, no one said they are easy to accept. It is for you to decide if you want to know the world that you live in, or if you want to have it all in bright colors but see nothing. Japs approached USSR for peace talks mediation well before Potsdam conference. The codes wear already broken and US knew about it almost immediately. It is well documented.

>>>There had been four cities chosen as possible targets: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki, and Niigata (Kyoto was the first choice until it was removed from the list by Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson). The cities were chosen because they had been relatively untouched during the war.
The Target Committee wanted the first bomb to be "sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it was released.<<<

Fact is something that have happened. You are posting an opinion, and you do not back it up in any way. This is irritating.

Just don’t overdo it. US is one of the greatest countries/cultures in the world, there is no way you can reach this position without making mistakes. Some times horrible mistakes. Statisticaly/theoretically.
Unfortunately modern culture urges us to neglect them, soon the Hiroshima tragedy will be whipped out of the school books due to the fact that it is hurting someone feelings and is too brutal. As a result, things like below can be wrote:

Do you even understand what you are saying? If not you, than its is your children who will live in a world where an entire city can be considered a military target. With all your relatives, cats and dogs. There wear years during the cold war, when the pre-launch cycles reached the level when the fuel seals (missiles are stored sealed, incapsulated) wear shot off. That is around 1 minute before the end of the world. The only reason why you are alive is because people from both sides saw the civilian population standing behind the military targets, saw that there was something bigger than mutual hatred.

 

This is incorrect. Collateral damage is recognized in the Laws of War. It refers to when civilians are killed during an attack on a military target.

The Laws of War require that the collateral damage expected from an attack not be excessive compared to the military gains expected from the attack.

I have answered the question. Collateral damage is no sort of crime whatsoever.

It is a bad thing when the bad guys twist the law to achieve an unjust result. The solution is for the good guys to ensure that they win, that way they can impose justice on the bad guys.

H2X radar was just as capable of guiding bombers to their target at night as it was during the day.

H2X radar also worked at high altitudes.

The only thing that is required for a pilot to do his utmost to hit the proper target, is for him to try as hard as he can to hit the proper target.

That report certainly makes us look bad, but I question its accuracy. (I accept that that commander actually filed that report, and I believe he did so in good faith, but I wonder if the commander was mistaken about the intended aimpoint.)

It was in Japan where we used area bombing to try to destroy factories within the target area.

I am not convinced that we used area bombing in Europe (other than central Berlin, which as the Nazi capital was a legitimate target).

It is a fact that we did not try to trick people into being in the open when the A-bombs were dropped.

Yes. It is a fact that the reason we dropped the A-bombs was to make Japan surrender to us. It is a fact that Japan didn't offer to surrender until after the A-bombs were dropped.

Facts chase the monster away.

Bombing military targets at the height of the most brutal war in human history? I do not see any darkness.

I choose facts. But those facts aren't all that bad for the US.

I don't see how that is relevant.

Japan was plotting a gambit where, in exchange for close post-war relations with Japan, the Soviets would mediate in bad faith and bully us into ending the war in a draw that would let Japan remain a hostile power (sort of like how the way the Korean War ended allows North Korea to continue as a hostile power).

We did not know exactly what Japan was hoping to propose to the Soviets. All our wiretaps revealed was Japan saying "please let Prince Konoye come and talk to you about our great new idea". But we guessed (correctly) that it was just an attempt to avoid losing the war.

There was certainly nothing there that would have prevented us from attacking Japan as hard as we could. The way for Japan to end our attacks against them was not to run to a third party with a secret proposal. Japan needed to surrender.

Yes, there were meetings to select what the targets would be. This does not change the fact that there was no "decision" regarding whether or not to drop the bombs.

Note that at the time the A-bomb targets were chosen, most Japanese cities were relatively untouched by the war. When the targets were picked, the firebombing of Japanese cities was just getting started.

Yes.

This is incorrect. I am posting facts.

"Generally links to proof in internet discussions are only supplied when someone requests proof of a specific point. It would be untenable for everyone to provide Wikipedia-like footnotes for every single post. If you would like me to provide a link regarding any particular point, ask, and I'll see what I can come up with."

That said, my area of expertise is Hiroshima/Nagasaki and Japan's surrender, not the bombing of Dresden. I'd rather receive cite requests in that area if possible.

All I do is counter the untrue accusations with facts.

I don't want it wiped out of the textbooks. But I much prefer that textbooks record the truth of the matter instead of untrue accusations against the US.

The military concentration at Hiroshima was substantial. The only city in the US that is comparable to Hiroshima would be Norfolk Virginia. If a nuclear war happened and Norfolk were nuked, I would not portray that as an attempt to kill civilians.

More than a few cities in the US have heavy industry comparable to Nagasaki. Those cities are targeted by nuclear weapons.

 

No, they do not require , have you read the article? Have you tried understanding it?

Too childish

And?

Ridicules

This is not called a gambit! Gambit is a chess term. And this is called brainwashing. You need intellect to play chess, and you cant both beleive abowe statement and have intellect in the same head. There is no space for both of them.

As far as you see, I disagree practically on all your posts. If you do not mind, please provide proof on all your topics from previous post. Otherwise lets call it a good talk, and forget about it.

 

Laws require people to avoid certain acts. That's why there are penalties for violating laws.

I am unsure what article you are referring to. I looked back up through a few previous posts and didn't see any articles posted.

It's the way the world works. If you fall under the power of the bad guys, they will do bad things to you. Thus the importance of doing everything possible to prevent the bad guys from gaining power over you.

US bombers did precision bombing at night and at high altitudes.

The accuracy may not have been as good as they would have preferred, but they did their best.

People make mistakes. What he said in his report was contrary to US bombing philosophy and contrary to the memories of many other people. It seems a reasonable explanation that he was mistaken.

I prefer the term gambit for Japan's little scheme.

The statement was true and factual. Intelligent people are quite able to hold facts in their heads.

As explained multiple times already, requests for cites are normally made for specific points. A request for "everything" is untenable.

 

I agree completely with the OP. Dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was completely unecessary. This is also the joint agreement of the vast majority of military leaders at the time.

 

You have mentionded "penalties" and I made an assumption that you knew what you wear talking about… Sorry... Collateral damage Geneva convention Articles 25-27 (1907), 51, 57, (1949, 1977).
Collateral damage has no set penalties in international Laws of War. Collateral damage has no set boundaries in international Laws of War.

There are no bad and good guys in international politics. All sides are fighting for better future for their children.

Precise bombing is technically impossible from high altitude with conventional weaponry in normal conditions in large formations in ww2 era. Technically.

Nimits had much more information on war with Japan than you or me will ever have and a Bomber Division Commanders do not make mistakes on payloads and targets in their reports to HQ, this is why we call them witnesses not dummies. This is precisely what brainwashing is, you are neglecting facts that do not suit your point of view with zero proof, only because they contradict what the TV tells you.

The world does not work the way you think. But since you neglect provided facts in the most illogical manner and refuse to provide yours, I see no reason to continue this dialog. Thank you for your time.

 

IMO we should nuke them a 3rd time. Keep them on their feet in case they are planning a revenge scenario.

 

Lesson: Don't poke the bear; you're the only one to blame when you get mauled.

 

It was so justified. Beyond even a spread of a doubt. This has already been shown. To argue against it is to argue against an ugly reality.

 

Wah, wah,wah, it's just precious to see liberals cry.

 

There is nothing like a nuclear holocaust for getting a conservative erect.

 

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

Remember that when you talk about American heroes hurt and killed in battle. They are all a bunch of babies....right?

 

You'll have to explain your liberal babble and just how that even remotely makes sense.

 

A little bit confused here, the Geneva Convention Articles you have cited;

Geneva Convention Articles 25-27 (1907) -

Art. 25. - The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.
Art. 26. - The officer in command of an attacking force must, before commencing a bombardment, except in cases of assault, do all in his power to warn the authorities.
Art. 27. - In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps must be taken to spare, as far as possible, buildings dedicated to religion, art, science, or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not being used at the time for military purposes.

It is the duty of the besieged to indicate the presence of such buildings or places by distinctive and visible signs, which shall be notified to the enemy beforehand.

Do you think the USA adhered to this?

Geneva Convention Article 51 (1949) - Irrelevant as it was after both bombs were dropped.
Geneva Convention Article 57 (1977) - Irrelevant as it was after both bombs were dropped.