hitler didnt have a plan to exterminate the jews

When you insult her, you insult me.

Then address the post and don't worry about the poster.

Yes, you did.

So you don't mind if I hold you to the same standard then? The first time you try to use an anecdote, I'll just call you a liar.

 

Oral orders? NOTHING written. Oh puh-leez.

You can't know then, can you, if the orders were 'oral'.

Unless you were actually in the room when they were given.

Or have an actual recording.

Why would they suddenly issue oral orders, for a plan of this scale, seriously??? Abandoning their usual record keeping and written orders.

Was it to keep it a secret? LOL - they expected to win, so why would they even worry about keeping it a secret!?

Or do you think they actually began pessimistic, expected to lose, therefore, made the orders oral only, so that when they were found out, there would be no war crimes trials?

 

Hitler was a vegetarian, so maybe he was just instituting portion control. I bet he could've solved our obesity epidemic in a matter of weeks.

 

Touching.

Anyway, my point stands, anecdotal claims about these things on the internet are unreliable.

 

Awwww, how sweet of you! But it's okay. I got this. I'm not worried about anyone's opinion but my own and the people I care about.

SaintMike,

it is a common enough story in my part of of the world. Everyone lost someone to either the Germans or the communists. There are a million families from Poland to St. Pete's who lost one or more family members to the war or post-war reeducation camps.

I'm glad people in the west are so sheltered that they didn't have to know this type of war and aftermath. I was a little girl when I left, so I know only the stories. When I left it was knee deep in communism, but there isn't a Pole in Poland who has any love for Germans or Russians because of what happened.

Old scars take a long time to heal.

 

Not at all relevant.

 

You could always talk to me and just say that you think I'm lying.

It makes everything more open and honest that way.

 

Bolsheviks and Commusim accounted for around 30mill or more innocent lives, most were Russian Christians and the poor.

Put into gulags, starved, tortured, etc.

Moreover, the Red Army committed war crimes at least the equal of that of Germany, if not more, yet never had to face up to their war crimes, did they, including btw, the rape of almost every single women and child in Berlin, it is said.

But we never hear about that, do we, it is a footnote at best.

 

For your safety, I would advise you no to go to France or Germany now, you would end up in jail.

 

sure, his people were persecuting them, imprisoning them, exterminating them but he didn't know about it cause as we all know, Hitler was dumb, had no control of anything, was a saint, wanted racial diversity in Germany and so he couldn't have had such a plan

 

I don't think you are grasping what I am saying.

What I am saying is that everyone knows the internet lends itself to people making personal claims, of this or that, and everyone knows it is often done to try to sway an arguement their way, now, I am not saying that is what you are doing or anything, I am saying that such claims have no value.

Because there is no way to measure the claim.

 

Yes, but Stalin didn't have a plan to exterminate people in gulags. People starve during war.

 

Why would you say that? I talk about it all the time. I've even said on other threads about WWII that people seem to forget what happened to all the rest of us when the West pulled out of Eastern Europe. More of us died than Jews in the Holocaust, but...this thread is about Nazis and the German army. There is no getting around what they did, either, or ignoring what their plans were for all of us. Poland and Eastern Europe got royally (*)(*)(*)(*)ed before, during, and after the war.

Start a thread about the Soviet Union and I'll wax all day about what happened to Ukrainians.

 

Well, Stalin did have plans to exterminate dissenters. Again, ask anyone from that part of the world. All of us have stories and know people who just "disappeared". Some came back, sure. Some didn't.

 

Himmler's speech at Posen:

"It is absolutely wrong to project our own harmless soul with its deep feelings, our kindheartedness, our idealism, upon alien peoples. This is true, beginning with Herder, who must have been drunk when he wrote the Voices Of The Peoples, thereby bringing such immeasurable suffering and misery upon us who came after him. This is true, beginning with the Czechs and Slovenes, to whom we brought their sense of nationhood. They themselves were incapable of it, but we invented it for them.

One principle must be absolute for the SS man: we must be honest, decent, loyal and friendly to members of our blood and to no one else. What happens to the Russians, what happens to the Czechs, is a matter of utter indifference to me. Such good blood of our own kind as there may be among the nations we shall acquire for ourselves, if necessary by taking away the children and bringing them up among us.

Whether the other races live in comfort or perish of hunger interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture; apart from that it does not interest me. Whether or not 10,000 Russian women collapse from exhaustion while digging a tank ditch interests me only in so far as the tank ditch is completed for Germany.

We shall never be rough or heartless where it is not necessary; that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude to animals, will also adopt a decent attitude to these human animals, but it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and to bring them ideals.

I shall speak to you here with all frankness of a very serious subject. We shall now discuss it absolutely openly among ourselves, nevertheless we shall never speak of it in public. I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race.

It is one of those things which is easy to say. 'The Jewish race is to be exterminated,' says every Party member. 'That's clear, it's part of our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, right, we'll do it.'

And then they all come along, the eighty million good Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are swine, but this one is a first-class Jew. (some laughter) Of all those who talk like this, not one has watched, not one has stood up to it. Most of you know what it means to see a hundred corpses lying together, five hundred, or a thousand. To have gone through this and yet – apart from a few exceptions, examples of human weakness – to have remained decent fellows, this is what has made us hard. This is a glorious page in our history that has never been written and shall never be written.

For we know how difficult we should have made it for ourselves, if – with the bombing raids, the burdens and the depravations of war – we still had Jews today in every town as secret saboteurs, agitators and trouble-mongers. We would now probably have reached the 1916-17 stage when Jews were still in the national body.

We have taken from them what wealth they had. I have issued a strict order, which SS-Obergruppenführer Pohl has carried out, that this wealth should, as a matter of course, be handed over to the Reich without reserve.

Some SS men have disobeyed this order. There are not very many – and they will be dead men – without mercy!!! (Himmler shouts) We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it – to kill this people who wanted to kill us. But we do not have the right to enrich ourselves with even one fur, with one Mark, with one cigarette, with one watch, with anything. That we do not have. Because at the end of this, we don't want – because we exterminated the bacillus – to become sick and die from the same bacillus.

I won't watch it happen – that even one bit of putrefaction comes in contact with us, or takes root in us. On the contrary, where it might try to take root, we will burn it out together. Altogether, however, we can say, that we have fulfilled this most difficult duty for the love of our people. And our spirit, our soul, our character has not suffered injury from it."

 

If it should not be true - I don't waste my time now to control this information - then it would be convincing for everyone who knows the Nazis. Tell me why you are a Nazi and why it makes sense for you to live more than 70 years in the past in a bloody and idiotic time.

http://youtu.be/AZbPdFv7qVs

 

Stalin?

Seriously mate, you need to lay the Jewish holocaust story to one side, one say, and undestand that tens of millions of people were murdered, on purpose, at the hands of Communism. Communists actually hated the people in their very own country. That is why, post war, so many tried to keep escaping for Communist countries.

 

I'm just making sure that Jack's logic is fair to use on Stalin if we're using it on Hitler.

 

And people who heard those orders gave sworn testimony of it. By your standard, testimony proves nothing and we might as well not even have a witness stand in our courtrooms. The reason we know about those orders in the spring of 1941 is because of witness testimony. Now for us normal folk, testimony is important in establishing a record of events. We normal people aren't besotted by the idiotic notion that if it wasn't written down it didn't happen.

A lot of orders are given orally in every war. I feel like I'm explaining things to someone from another planet.

Because most Germans were still in the dark about what was being done in their name.

I think you're pettifogging now to obscure the issue. A sign that your argument is moribund.

 

And what about that was different with Nazism?

 

Why would I say that the Jewish holocaust is given so much publicity, that the small matter of the other being reduced to a footnote?

Because it is.

You as an individual may not. I may not. But I speak not of you or I.

 

Well, for one thing, they had to stand on War crimes trials.

The Red Army and Communism never were.

 

So you think and are told.

I mean, no way would it ever have been under duress, no way would confessions ever have been gotten under torture, and I am sure that all aspects of the post war trials were above board...

 

Just wanted to highlight certain portions.

 

Because those people a) are dead, b) have nukes, and c) the people in these countries wanted to pick up and move on.