How does a secular or atheist person get a religious and / or spiritual experience?

Describe and or give us your ideas on what a religious and / or spiritual experience looks like or is to you.

What is enlightenment to you?

Examples would help us know just what we are talking about.

Regards
DL

 

I see telepathy as natural, but learning that it is real is enlightening.

Knowing any truth without a doubt is.

Regards
DL

 

they do compete with religion, that is why many religious fanatics are against them

Peyote is a good example, don't want Indian religious beliefs spreading now do we

 

It seems to me that the golden rule uses ones personal standards and beliefs as a measure. It asks what I would like, etc.

That's a handy standard as it is always readily available, obviously.

But, I don't see it as much guidance concerning what is the best or even just ethical way forward. And, that's especially true in the political arena.

I would bet that most people of all political persuasions believe they are following the golden rule.

On the other hand, Matthew 25 has Jesus stating that his followers need to be finding people in prison, in the hospital, in the poor house and then helping them with what they need. And, he states that the penalty is hell, including for his followers who fail at this task.

I find that far more appealing than the golden rule as guidance concerrning our duties toward others. There isn't any question in those verses about what I would love to have happen to me, what are societal norms/laws, what is considered ethical today, etc.

And, far fewer people can say they live up to that directive from Jesus.

 

Not surprising given that from Jesus' POV, genociding us with his Armageddon is not doing unto othere.

Who the hell wants to be murdered by a god who can cure as easily as kill, but always kills.

The Golden Rule is statistically said to be the first moral tenet of better than 70%.

Almost all of us use some kind of reciprocity rule as our main moral tenet.

Regards
DL

 

I'm not as upset about the Armageddon thing. The context is that God is the judge of each individual, and there will be an end to the universe. Obviously, that does leave a LOT of questions. But, at least that part doesn't have god promoting evil between men.

I'm more upset with the idea that Christianity praises the slaughter of Jericho - a case of one people demanding the property of others and God intervening by helping Joshua kill every man, woman, child and animal in that city. That was pure terrorism, promoted and effected by god, aimed at assuring that other cities would surrender themselves for the taking by the god-blessed Israelites.

Then we also hear of the slaughter of the Middianites, where God helped the Israelites slaughter tens of thousands of these people, including prisoners - EXCEPT for the virgin girls who were then divided among the generals.

And, these spill into the issues of today, as Israel (which claims to be a religious state based on this god) sees itself as justified in bulldozing the homes of people whose lands they want.

Why should I accept moral leadership from a god that takes actions such as these?

As for the golden rule, I just don't see it as strong enough to point the way when there are forces such as exist in society, politics and religion.

 

Nice that you support genocide and think a genocidal god to be a just god.

You must also bend the knee to St. Hitler.

I disagree as your own bible says we are to be perfect as your genocidal god.

Christians try hard, as shown by the stats that show that the less religion a country has, the more law abiding and peaceful it is.

Note how the jail stats in the U.S. proves the stats.

As to the other atrocities, look at what Jews think.



Regards
DL

 

I see a difference between god judging individuals (god's relationship to an individual) and god promoting violence between individuals.

Hitler's actions involved violence between individuals and groups of individuals, having nothing to do with god. So, we disagree on the Hitler thing, I guess.

I am an atheist. We should all read the bible, as it is too much of our politics, society, etc. to simply ignore.

Our number of jailed citizens, our death penalty, our tollerance of gun violence, our healthcare distribution system and other factors are a stupendous national embarrassment, and Christians clearly do not care about that.

 

Stay an atheist. Their morals and ways are better than the garbage the mainstream religions offer.

What makes you think a god has relationship with humans?

He was a deadbeat dad to his own son, in the myth, who he abandoned.

Regards
DL

 

I would include all your right wing loonie bin citizens.

Regards
DL

 

Well, I don't believe in their god. However, I think some arguments can be stronger if they don't just judge the entire religion as garbage.

For example, my references to Matthew 25 are strong, I think, because it does apply to people who accept what Christians say about Jesus.

We are really not going to make much progress on this "there is no god" direction.

 

As a Gnostic Christian, I do not.

I recognize the progressive and moral left that accepts gays and women as equal. I also recognize the right wing loonie bin crowd.

The think is and why I do not specify the difference is that if the left were that progressive, they would have condemned Yahweh to hell and would then join the only good Christians. Gnostic Christians.

You cannot be a good anything if you adore genocidal god who always kills, when god could just as easily cure.

That was what Jesus said to do yet still promised Armageddon and yet another genocide.

Regards
DL

 

OK. But, the majority of them do self identify as Christians.

If I'm interested in an issue, I think I can be more persuasive if argue from within the set of precepts they espouse.

Also, I do believe that various religious writings (the Bible, etc.) have elements of philosophy that are important - Matthew 25:30 or so to the end, for example.

I'm really not interested in trying to change people's religion. I see that as pretty much hopeless, judging by how unlikely it is that someone will change my own views concerning gods as well as my past total failure on such attempts.

 

You have a point, that shows most Christians do not care about morality and only care about staying in their tribes or religion and are willing to degrade their wives and hate their gay kids to stay in them.

I agree that such immoral a hole are hard to rescue from Satan's influence.

We owe it to Christians as well as their victims and all of society to try.

Fascist thinking should have died out long ago and is only maintained by the religious who want a god with the biggest dick, regardless of how immoral he is or how often he uses genocide.

Regards
DL

 

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Only God can give you a true "religious and/or spiritual experience"

For example, God gave antichrist Saul a vision on the road to Damascus and turned him into Christ's apostle Paul.

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The gnostic congregations I know about accept the Christian god and celebrate the eucharist.

I only mention this out of curiosity.

 

That is a common but mostly incorrect assessment of the GR.

For example - suppose one claimed "I don't mind if someone kills me -so it is OK for me to kill others" Is such a thing possible - for sure -but is it common .. obviously not - this person is a complete moron .. and we should not be making law on the basis of one moron in a crowd of 10,000.

So while on the surface this seems like it might be a valid argument - in the context of "Consent of the Governed" in a Constitutional Republic - this is meaningless as in a proper functioning system - no law can be made that messes with essential liberty - that does not have "Overwhelming majority" support 2/3rs minimum. This weeds out the occasional moron in the crowd.

There are few that accept random joe forcing beliefs on them through physical violence. Take an Anti Abort for example - ask them - would you be willing to put a gun to the girls head - threatening to pull the trigger if she does not comply with your demand to carry the pregnancy to term ... say a woman whos room-mate who has just discovered she is pregnant.

What do you think - how many say "Yeah I would do that" - other than the few moron's in the crowd. The problem here is that this is exactly what they are doing when consenting to law banning abortion - just having someone else do it for them - which is just as much a crime as having done it yourself .. Paying someone to murder someone is no different than doing it yourself in terms of moral culpability.

So what do we have here .. if not a violation of the Golden Rule - Would these people like it if someone held a gun to their head - demanding they comply with some religious belief - such as "You must eat Pork" 3 times a week .. when the person is Jewish Or Muslim.

Yet - this is what they are doing to others .. violating the Golden rule. We don't need everyone to follow this rule .. just an overwhelming majority .. who act like normal people - not like the one moron in the crowd.

You can not talk about this rule outside of an actual example - some things are like that .. making no sense .. as you can see as in general terms .. on the surface .. your argument seems fine .. but in the context of an example .. is a ridiculous argument .. based on the will of the one moron in the crowd .. rather than the will of the overwhelming majority.

 

I am an atheist currently on a bike trip in France and yesterday got very deep spiritual experience.
I was driving a bike through small French village called Augigny-sur-Nere, when suddenly I saw on the opposite side of the road a beautiful girl. The experience was so deep I forgot I am a married man and I come to conclusion the must be a God. Such a beautiful creature must be a God's creation.

 

Your statement about god is a lie.

Prove me wrong.

As to a literal and real Paul, do you believe in a literal genocidal Yahweh and talking serpents and donkeys?

Regards
DL

 

There are many flavors in all religions, even Gnostic Christianity.

How can they accept Yahweh while all the Gnostic literature name him a vile demiurge?

We also see the immorality of substitutional punishment and I would rather choke than think of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of somebody who asks me to sin greatly by abdicating my responsibility for my own sins.

What you describe is more of a Christian sect masquerading as a moral religion.

They must have heard that the only good Christians are Gnostic Christians, thanks to our morals, and have tried to capitalize by polluting our belief system.

Please advise them to change their label, or ask them why they bow to Jesus while condemning Yahweh to hell.

Regards
DL

 

All Bible story is very suspicious to me.
The Bible God require:
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife"
and then He makes a child to a married woman.
We know God is capable to create a humane from nothing, so why he gave horns to St. Joseph?

 

Right - I don't think that happens.

I think it's more like a person believing that if they did X then they would fully expect consequences as specified to keep our society running, as per identified in the bible, or whatever. If I don't buy health insurance, then I accept the consequences - and I would be find with others accepting the consequences. In that kind of manner, I think people are willing to watch others suffer without thinking that golden rule principles should be applied either personally or through civic action. And, it is true that we use consequences as a tool to keep civil order, demand contribution, etc.

I'm not confident that I understand your point here.

It seems like you are identifying limitations to the golden rule, and that's why I think the rule is weak at best.

It's why I like Matthew 25 where Jesus talks about the sheep and the goats, identifying a duty his followers have.

Jesus directs us to FIND people who need help and HELP them. He specifically identifies those in need of medial care, those who are poor and those who are in prison. Jesus says nothing about judging them.

Find them. If they need help, then help them.

 

God is supposed to be all powerful, yet man exceeds his power of reproduction as we breed pure while Yahweh, as you mentioned, can only cuckold Joseph, use a human to reproduce, and still only produces a half breed chimera.

Then the prick became a deadbeat dad and never helped Marie at all.

I wonder if the is why there are so many Christian unwed mothers. All Christians want to emulate Yahweh.

I guess he wondered why his son's of god had used the Earth and our women before the flood and decided that bestiality might be ok for himself as well.

What a dumb story when you break it down.

Keep up the moral work my friend.

Regards
DL

 

Can you identify a gnostic Christian segment that doesn't believe in the god of the Bible?

 

I am confident that you did not .. will try to simplify further.

Do you not understand how the moron does not matter to the equation ? Will not impact the result of the GR - as implemented in Law ? How then is the moron a limitation ?.. I have presented to you how the moron ceases to become a limitation - but you have somehow gotten things reversed.

In the Sheep/Goat parable Jesus Judges those who do not render assistance to the poor and those in prison - even though they "have faith" - contradicting Martin Luther's "Free pass through Judgement" claim.