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How To Reform Redistricting And End Political Gerrymandering

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Meta777, May 26, 2018.

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  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I understand the issue you're referencing, but how exactly does that really have anything at all to do with gerrymandering??
    Are you suggesting that gerrymandering somehow fixes the issue of undocumented immigrants being counting in the census tally??

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #26
  2. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are forgetting one little detail.

    Gerrymandering doesn't work, never has.

    Congress has historically shifted back and forth between the two parties relatively consistently since its inception.

    If gerrymandering was as potent as you claim then it would be impossible for it to change to the other side.

    In fact, in 2018 and 2020 it should be impossible for the democrats to pick up seats because republicans drew all the lines to benefit them.

    Yet so far we've seen the democrats having no problem displacing republicans so perhaps you can tell us what's wrong with your little theory here.
     
    Spooky, May 27, 2018
    #27
  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Excuse me?....o_O

    If gerrymandering didn't work to some degree, then politicians wouldn't bother paying people to put together all these highly gerrymandered maps. But what we see is that not only does gerrymandering continue to go on, but actually gets worse every few years. No one ever said that it was a full-proof tactic though. The idea of gerrymandering is that it gives certain groups an unfair advantage over others. That advantage can be overcome if a significant enough number of people become fed up with the parties in power and vote against them in massive enough numbers. But it typically requires that well over a majority of the voters would need to become fed up in such a way for such an overturn to occur, which should not have be the case.

    There were several instances in 2016 in which gerrymandering led to one party getting a clear minority of congressional votes while at the same time ending up with a significant majority of the congressional seats which were being voted on. A lot of these were republican, and yet democrats still won a few. And not much has changed since then which would alter the equation. What you're saying just isn't true.

    Explained above....but seriously?....
    You're really trying to defend the practice of gerrymandering??
    I gotta say that I'm surprised at that...I thought there would be disagreement on the solution,
    but I honestly never expected that there would be anyone who would come
    in here and try to peg gerrymandering as anything other than what it is...

    ...an unfair political corruption of our democracy.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #28
  4. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you see how you are now qualifying this attack on gerrymandering?

    You are saying that it works to "some degree", or there were "several instances" of it happening but its obviously not the major problem you are making it out to be and honestly you will never find a 100% fair system.

    And the main reason for gerrymandering, which it was created for, it actually working just like you said. Its lumping together groups of people with similar interests so they can have their views represented in Congress.

    Like you said, it works and if you dig deep into gerrymandering and the groups who approach and submit information to those in Congress drawing the lines you may actually be surprised at what a good job they are doing.

    Farmers and seniors are two of the biggest groups pushing for their views to be gerrymandered.

    Because these groups tend to vote a certain way is a side effect, its not the reason for gerrymandering in 99% of the cases out there. You want to break up these gerrymandered groups and add in people that don't share their views which is in effect, limiting their representation in congress.

    So say we have a bunch of farmers in Idaho who want to be grouped together to get a representative in congress that will support their farming activity. You say no, that's wrong because they all vote republican so lets draw the lines so we include some inner city people who will vote against their needs. So now you have not only screwed the farmers but also the inner city people who have completely different needs just in your desire to have "fair representation".

    Do you see your flaw yet?
     
    Spooky, May 27, 2018
    #29
  5. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not attempting to find a 100% "perfect" solution.
    But what I do want is for us to find ways which we can improve upon the current state of things.

    The real question though I think is what is it you are trying to do?...
    You just defended gerrymandering by suggesting it allows for certain interests to get their views represented in congress.
    The problem is, it does so at the expense of democracy on the whole.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #30
  6. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I should also point out, that all of what you just wrote here pretty much completely contradicts your earlier claim of gerrymandering being ineffective. More importantly though, you should really read this post: http://www.politicalforum.com/index...itical-gerrymandering.533582/#post-1069122405 as it explains exactly why your stated justification for why we should have gerrymandering just doesn't work out in the long run.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #31
  7. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It does not and democracy is just fine, you are the one that wants to disrupt it.

    What you are saying is that, for instance, this group of farmers are all lumped together and vote republican so lets fix that by adding in others who won't vote for their interests.

    Instead of telling democrats that maybe they should listen to the farmers problems and commit to fixing them, thereby winning their votes and the district, you want to rig the system so that group loses power.

    I can't think of anything more unamerican and against democracy than that.

    But if you have an idea that simply doesn't boil down to just adding in people that vote opposite of the district than share it with us because I'm not seeing your plan that is fair to the farmers, or the seniors, or the many other groups represented by gerrymandering right now.
     
    Spooky, May 27, 2018
    #32
  8. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I meant its ineffective in the way you are claiming its used for.

    If that's what its entire purpose was it doesn't work. If it did work then congress would never flip.
     
    Spooky, May 27, 2018
    #33
  9. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Please quote the specific remarks you're responding to then.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #34
  10. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your whole OP and quit trying to side track this because you are stumped for an answer.

    Let's take Florida and a district that might have a heavy population of Cubans in it. I think we should draw it to encompass those Cubans because they all more than likely share the same views and are entitled to representation in congress even though lets say that they all vote democratic.

    Voting democrat would be a side effect, not the reason for lumping them together. You say, well they all vote democratic so we must break that up.....well duh, they all vote the same way because they are voting for the guy/gal who usually represents their needs the best in congress.

    And if you look at the gerrymandered districts that flip, and you haven't come up with an answer on why they flip by the way, I will tell you the reason. Its because the candidate from the other party is addressing their needs more than the guy whose side they usually vote for.

    You do not need to draw lines to get a certain amount of different votes, you simply need to get representatives to address the needs that district has.

    That is the key point you aren't seeing here.
     
    Spooky, May 27, 2018
    #35
  11. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    OK couple things here...firstly, its starting to sound as if you haven't read the rest of the thread...
    I've mentioned this before, but this isn't just about about one party vs the other.
    Both parties participate in gerrymandering. And regardless of which one is doing it, it is a bad thing either way.
    And even when the gerrymandering in question isn't directly benefiting one party over the other,
    it is still giving incumbent politicians more of an advantage than they should really have,
    and more than they would have were the maps to be drawn fairly.

    Also, are you aware that several different solutions have already been suggested within this thread?
    Do you understand what it is we are suggesting should be done in order to get rid of gerrymandering?
    If so, then it would probably be best to discuss the faults and merits of those proposed solutions directly,
    rather than continuing on in these vague unspecified generalities...

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #36
  12. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Do you realize how long that OP is and how many different aspects it covers?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #37
  13. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Like I was saying...this issue isn't strictly about party.
    Gerrymandering based on class, race, or any other such factors is just as bad.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #38
  14. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As I said, all of those solutions encompass one priority.

    Adding in voters who will vote opposite of the views of the gerrymandered district.

    That is the only goal of any solution listed in this thread and goes directly against the purpose of gerrymandering, which you even admitted, is a good goal on paper but also works in practice quite well. Go and research some of these gerrymandered districts and you will find a majority of them are indeed, gerrymandered to favor one type of group.

    And it should be that way.

    That is part of the design of our entire political system.

    I am failing to see what your actual end game result is that you want to see here. If one side is winning a majority of these gerrymandered districts it is because the people in there are liking what a particular candidate is saying and how in the world does it favor an incumbent?

    Can you be more specific on that?
     
    Spooky, May 27, 2018
    #39
  15. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you are against groups with similar interests coming together to get their views heard in congress?
     
    Spooky, May 27, 2018
    #40
  16. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Please note Liberal courts have created some of the worst gerrymanders ever trying to make sure people of a certain complexion, got a representative who shared that complexion. The one in most of the South weren't created by political parties but by the courts.
     
    garyd, May 27, 2018
    #41
  17. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    My answer to that was at the top of this post:
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-gerrymandering.533582/page-2#post-1069125038
    You may have just missed it...

    That is also a possible reason. Though again, it shouldn't be the case.
    It should not be the case that the minority exerts so much influence that they end up being the ones to set policy over the wishes of the majority. The idea of democracy is that the majority makes the rules, and in our democracy minority ought to simply be content in the knowledge that they are at least afforded some key constitutionally/judicially protected unalienable rights.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #42
  18. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Not one single idea posted so far does that.
    In fact, the ideas suggested up to this point (with the possible exception of one)
    have all been specifically set up to make a point of not taking into consideration at all
    things like how people in a certain area vote or what their race or ethnicity is. That's really the whole point!

    When you start looking at classifications like that when drawing the maps,
    you immediately open yourself up to inserting bias into the results.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #43
  19. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Of course, that is one of the major points of gerrymandering and also one of the very reasons why it needs to be gotten rid of.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #44
  20. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I want our congress to be more representative of the populous as a whole. I want our congress to be one which we can be proud of, at least relatively speaking, rather than one of which we, the people, collectively hate with a passion.

    So, having now seen these goals, would you not agree that they are indeed goals worth aspiring towards?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #45
  21. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    LOt's of luck convincing Obama appointees to get Rid of the Racial Gerrymanders that the courts established through out the south. and a few northern states as well.
     
    garyd, May 27, 2018
    #46
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    The people in a lot of those gerrymandered districts like their incumbents because those incumbents more often that not played a direct role in drawing the gerrymandered maps such that those gerrymandered districts would specifically include and or give an unfair advantage to the people that like them...which is precisely why the gerrymandered districts then favor those incumbents. But what this leads to is a congressional body which is more hated overall, since what such gerrymandering does is to make elections less competitive, which in turn makes it harder to get rid of those incumbents even if the majority of a state agrees that they aren't doing a very good job.

    I've said it before, I'll say it again. The voters ought to be the ones picking the politicians...not the other way around.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #47
  23. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    If they want to get together and lobby congress as an organized cooperative then that's fine by me, but ffs people need to stop inserting their group's biases into the election process.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #48
  24. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    If congress would actually get busy putting together some anti-gerrymandering laws, I highly doubt that courts would do anything to overturn them. Courts often step in to overturn the gerrymandered maps themselves, at least some of them, as in ones which clearly involve race and are so bad they'd make Elbridge Gerry himself blush...but the resulting maps can easily end up being just as gerrymandered as the original even if in the opposite direction. Which is why what we need here is a comprehensive solution...something which can be codified into an actual law, whether it be a set of standards, an algorithm, a council, expert comity...whatever it takes really to ensure that newly drawn maps are not gerrymandered, or at least not gerrymandered as much as they are today.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #49
  25. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Going through the courts isn't the way to fix this issue.
    Pressure needs to be put on congress. But first we need to come to a consensus on what the actual solution should be.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, May 27, 2018
    #50
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