Huge Russian military exercise in September

It doesn't come across Fred.

 

Basically, almost every kind of rebel and insurgent who are armed and fighting against the government of their own country will be given double standards in the world!
For some it is ... even after the standards you have described ... terrorists, also because they are making attacks in their fight. For the other side, however, they are heroic freedom fighters in a legitimate struggle against an allegedly or actually evil government.

As I said before, the FSA rebels are after all terrorists for you, according to previous posts ... not for others.
The insurgents from the minorities in northern Georgia are for the Georgians and for others as terrorists ... you and most Russians see it differently.

And now ...?

Ultimately, the whole term terrorist or not terrorist is now insignificant as a measure of value through these things and I mean that.
I have now mentioned 2 examples of Russian participation, but only because you are Russian. I could as well have taken up-to-date or historical examples for the US and the West, with the same result ... one side sees them as terrorists, the other side not!

As stated above, this is a personal matter of opinion ultimately ...
Not that I want to dispute that the West has also supported terrorists in Libya or Syria ... but I suppose less intention here, but more stupidity in action.
Unfortunately, especially the US like to act according to the motto "The enemy of my enemy is my friend whom I support ... no matter who that is!"
This is more American stupidity than American intent ...

 

Back to the subject:

The war games have now started with 300,000 Russian soldiers and officers, including 6,000 airborne troops, over 1,000 warplanes, helicopters and drones, about 36,000 armor, and 80 combat and support ships. Units from China will also take part in the maneuver.

One of the elements of the exercise is to have a secure network of intelligence and command to cover almost 10 million square kilometers. No joking there when it comes to defending the motherland. To make sure everyone gets the message, it will be monitored by 57 nations as well as NATO and the European Union.

 

Danke schön, Mandelus... I was going to start a thread like this, but you have already done it!

This is the largest, most comprehensive set of military maneuvers conducted by Russia since before the end of the Soviet Union way back in 1991. Moreover, CHINA is participating in it, too.

We sit over here in the U. S., hacking each other to pieces in our unending political civil-war, and every day the Russians and China grow more and more powerful. The Germans and many others in the EU are not (NOT) stupid -- and they see clearly what is going on, militarily and economically in the world today. I predict that in several more years, Germany (leading the EU) will establish much closer ties with Russia and China -- economically, at first. Later, military alliances would likely follow....

Russia, China, and Germany will virtually rule the entire Eastern Hemisphere within 20 years from now....

. "Khrushchev was wrong! The Americans are BURYING THEMSELVES!"

 

Gerne geschehen Pollycy ...
My ... purely personal point of view and opinion ... is that since the terrorist attacks of 9/11 the world has started to change and that change, since Trump in power, has been pushed again ... but not the attacks themselves or the Islamic terrorism are the reason, but the actions and reactions after.
Ever since Bush moved to the White House, the US has withdrawn more and more from NATO business ... not only in terms of the number of soldiers and units in Europe, but also in terms of the perception of NATO's duties Used in Afghanistan and then intensively since the US attack on Saddam in 2003 (what is today left is only a rediculous rest in Europe. Remember that until Desert Storm 1991, the famous and huge V. US Army Corps was completely placed in Germany!). Things and duties that were so far clear and not disputed or questioned by any side to be a task of the US, were taken over by Europeans ... also because even the US is not unlimited military Resources have to accomplish without a total mobilization like World War II. In Iraq, pretty much everything and everyone in Army and Marines (including National Guards) had not only had missions for a while, so they had to make missions. There was not much left for NATO.
But Iraq was the point where the transatlantic relationship starts to get broke, as France and Germany both not only denied their participation and support, but also criticized the US attack. I can still remember these rude US politician clowns, who demanded to renounce the "French Fries" into "Freedom Fries" at that time and other demanded punishment for German cars for it as US reaction.
Only the US-led coalition of the "Willing" later crumbled piece by piece, and now pretty much every one of them says, albeit not always openly, that France and Germany were right then ... and here I come not even to speak on the subject of "lies with weapons of mass destruction".
Since then, relations between the US and Europe have progressively cooled more in all areas ... also because the Europeans, I want to call it "adult"! and did not want to be dictated by Big Daddy "Uncle Sam" any more and develop their own views and no longer want to submit. Since, of course, has caused negative reactions in the US, of course, because they were not used to a no of their "European protégés" and certainly not when they began to make counterclaims that the US should bend here and there for their sake.

Since Trump and all his actions and behaviors towards the Europeans, this has accelerated again.
Take this annoying issue because of the contractual NATO commitment to put 2% of the GDP in the defense ... which only very few do. Evil Europeans = Reaction of the Americans, as they too often read here .... but is that really true? No!
Even before Trump, it was in 2014 agreed by all NATO members by contract that all will have to meet this 2% by 2022. Are we already in 2022 or do we have still 2018 ... or why is Trump making such stress suddenly about it and accuse the Euros for it here like mad... what his followers cheer for?
Only that is not really mentioned in the US media, if at all ... and certainly does not come this fact and this undeniable truth of Trump, because then he makes himself to be ridiculous clown in front of his own people, eh?

I also think and fear that the gap between Europe and the United States will continue to widen and that the EU ... in which Germany is the biggest economic power ... will have to reflect more and more on itself, yes, and have to reflect new partners will be looking in the other direction.
I am certainly not a fan of Putin and have the same rgenuk criticisms of him ... but I am neutral enough to see that much of what the West accuses him of is actually nonsense, or we are actually not better at things. And above all the USA did and do a lot themselves, for which they accuse Putin!

 

The Wales Summit Declaration (2014) to which you refer does describe contributions to NATO countries' defense in Point #14 (added emphasis is mine):

14. We agree to reverse the trend of declining defence budgets, to make the most effective use of our funds and to further a more balanced sharing of costs and responsibilities. Our overall security and defence depend both on how much we spend and how we spend it. Increased investments should be directed towards meeting our capability priorities, and Allies also need to display the political will to provide required capabilities and deploy forces when they are needed. A strong defence industry across the Alliance, including a stronger defence industry in Europe and greater defence industrial cooperation within Europe and across the Atlantic, remains essential for delivering the required capabilities. NATO and EU efforts to strengthen defence capabilities are complementary. Taking current commitments into account, we are guided by the following considerations:

• Allies currently meeting the NATO guideline to spend a minimum of 2% of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) on defence will aim to continue to do so. Likewise, Allies spending more than 20% of their defence budgets on major equipment, including related Research & Development, will continue to do so.
• Allies whose current proportion of GDP spent on defence is below this level will:
  • halt any decline in defence expenditure;
  • aim to increase defence expenditure in real terms as GDP grows;
  • aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade with a view to meeting their NATO Capability Targets and filling NATO's capability shortfalls.

​

Link: https://www.nato.int/cps/ic/natohq/official_texts_112964.htm

But, which countries are actually paying what amounts? Here is a listing of the countries and the percentage of their contributions as of Feb. 2017, according to Business Insider (a generally reliable source of information): https://nordic.businessinsider.com/nato-share-breakdown-country-2017-2?r=US&IR=T

Here's a breakdown of each country's contribution, based on 2016 figures provided by NATO:

United States, 3.61 percent.

Greece, 2.38 percent.

Britain, 2.21 percent.

Estonia, 2.16 percent.

Poland, 2 percent.

France, 1.78 percent.

Turkey, 1.56 percent.

Norway, 1.54 percent.

Lithuania, 1.49 percent.

Romania, 1.48 percent.

Latvia, 1.45 percent.

Portugal, 1.38 percent.

Bulgaria, 1.35 percent.

Croatia, 1.23 percent.

Albania, 1.21 percent.

Germany, 1.19 percent.

Denmark, 1.17 percent.

Netherlands, 1.17 percent.

Slovakia, 1.16 percent.

Italy, 1.11 percent.

Czech Republic, 1.04 percent.

Hungary, 1.01 percent.

Canada, 0.99 percent.

Slovenia, 0.94 percent.

Spain, 0.91 percent.

Belgium, 0.85 percent.

Luxembourg, 0.44 percent.

Although these figures are two years old, has anything of significance changed? A report from NATO issued two months ago does not indicate much change:

"According to NATO’s most recent estimate, released in June 2017, six EU countries hit the 2 percent target: the United States, Greece, the United Kingdom, Estonia, Romania and Poland. The latter two countries scraped across the line at 2.02 percent and 2.01 percent respectively." Link: https://www.politico.eu/article/nat...p-8-countries-to-hit-defense-spending-target/

Even this latest information is over a year old. Meanwhile, Russia and China have been growing stronger and stronger militarily. You probably remember that as recently as December 2014, Russia stood up an entirely new military command:
Northern Fleet Joint Strategic Command. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Fleet_Joint_Strategic_Command_(Russia)

To say the least, this latest gigantic series of military maneuvers that Russia is staging (and with China), sets off my "alarm bells". I have been accused in this forum of being a great admirer of Vladimir Putin, but I reply by stating that we must be willing to honestly appraise our potential adversaries and opponents if we are to be intelligently balanced in forming our own strategies. Being blunt, I have believed that both "W" Bush and Obama were dreadfully AWFUL presidents -- each in his own malfeasant, inconsistent, stupid way. Thus, for 16 years, we Americans did little (if anything) that was of any real benefit to our own country. Example: Afghanistan!

Current President Trump is trying to change that now, but it may be too little, too late. And, it must be admitted, he has a very abrasive way of presenting himself on the international scene. He never went to "charm-school". But can he set this country back on a proper footing? I am beginning to think that regardless of what Trump does, Russia and China will continue to grow stronger and more capable. And, Germans (along with the more intelligent EU countries) can see this clearly....

 

About these damned 2% issue ...

Here a link to the official document of the German government about:

https://www.bundestag.de/blob/505886/e86b5eecc480c0415bff0d131f99789f/wd-2-034-17-pdf-data.pdf

Of course in German, but let me translate some depending points:

At the NATO summit in Wales from 4 to 5 September 2014

- those Alliance members who reach NATO's target of spending at least two percent of their gross domestic product (GDP) on defense, aim to do so,
- as well as those Allies whose defense spending share of GDP is currently below this benchmark, do not continue to cut defense spending but increase real-world spending on defense as part of GDP growth and move up to the two-percent benchmark within ten years, to achieve their NATO capability goals and to close capability gaps of NATO.

Note... "within ten years" means 2014 + 10 = 2024 as goal to reach! So in core the same what you have quoted of your source.

So when have the "bad Euros" to fullfill the 2% as deadline (and then to hold of course)? In 2024 and now we have 2018 = Trumps complaint is simply Bull*** and unjustified
But more important mate ... was this told in the US media or is this so far communicated at anyway to the wide part of US people as infromation ... particulary to those who cheer Trump for his attacks on the Europeans who do currently not fullfill the 2%?
I think not and this is the sad point in my opinion! We are accused by this dumbass unjustified and without any reason and no one tells the real truth the US people inside the USA!

 

You are correct! I honestly do not care much for what Kanzlerin Merkel and Verteidigungsministerin von der Leyen have done with respect to the Bundeswehr in recent years, but I know that the Germans do report their figures and statistics accurately. And, yes, it is still a long way until 2022....

It is unfortunate that our American media rarely stay focused on 'the story' long enough, or with enough rigor and accuracy to do any subject justice! About the only thing our media seem to be concerned with unendingly is constructing agitation-propaganda to use in destroying Donald Trump.

But, back to Russia. I keep asking myself, "Why is Putin flexing his muscles now?" I can only surmise that he is working some kind of strategy WITH China involving the Middle East. In such a schauspiel, the minor 'players' would be Syria and Iran, but the greater strategy would be to cement relations with China and meld Russia (and its military) into a greater context with China in the deployment of its strategy of "Belt-and-Road". China already has a large 'holding' in Africa, and that will surely increase after the Union of South Africa pursues its confiscation and "redistribution" of property owned by White South Africans. China will ultimately take over the whole thing, and Russia, no doubt, wants to be in a position to enjoy the Chinese acquisitions through partnership....

And Germany? In the next five years or so it will become even more clear to Germans that they probably have more to gain in a closer relationship with Russia and China than they do with the U. S. I don't enjoy saying that, but it is almost surely true. Ask yourself, "Which would Germans rather do, buy natural gas from Russia at a very cheap price, delivered by pipeline, or, would Germans rather pay over 350% more for liquified natural gas from the United States that must be shipped from Coos Bay, Oregon in huge tankers requiring gigantic port facilities and other infrastructure?"

 

Each person speaks definitions only from his perception. For example. Dr. Mengel is a moral monster and a killer for me. And even if for his family, Dr. Mengel is white and fluffy, for me he remains a moral monster, a sadist and a mass murderer .... However, for you it is possible he is a role model.
And the same thing with terrorists.

Your attempts to view terrorists from the point of view of each person's individual attitude are justifications of terrorism. The next stage of such a approach is the justification of fascism? After all, many sadists and mass murderers for some people, for example, their family members and colleagues in the NSDAP or the SS are examples to follow.

Now on the topic of the post. Video for your topic.

 

Is this personal view of whether a group of insurgents are terrorists or not, perfectly obvious Destroyer?

As a Russian, you look like the FSA in Syria as a terrorist. At least the Turks say they are not terrorists but heroic rebels against Assad. And now?
Already you have a very recent example of how the personal view of individuals and governments decide whether they are terrorists or not!

You say that this would be terroists ... Let's stay with the FSA as an example ... legitimize. Good and yes, you can see it that way. But you can also see it the other way round and say that labeling enemy insurgents as terrorists serves to discredit an enemy in order to rob him of credibility and reputation!

Look at Hezbollah and ask an Iranian if it's a terrorist and he'll say no! Ask the same for an Israeli and he'll tell you that they're definitely terrorists!

Do you see what I mean now ... regardless of the question who is right in these examples or not?

 

It's not that I am against this 2%, quite the contrary! I see a considerable need for our armed forces in terms of modernization, but also a lot of other things that are embarrassing. If I read that last year 10 helicopter pilots lose their flight license due to lack of enough flight hours because the helicopters concerned have been too much in repair for too long because of deflations, then not only does not my understanding stop, then I want to see the heads of those in charge for this mess roll!

On the other hand, I also find this US behavior ridiculous to brag about with the gigantic US defense budget! Apart from the fact that in my eyes an immense amount of US tax money is unnecessarily wasted, the US inevitably has expenses due to its geostrategic claim that others without this ambition do not have. Do Europeans have bases in Japan or do they see any need for it at all? No! And do the US bases in Japan have anything to do with NATO and the obligations of NATO members? No!

As far as Russia is concerned, I am certainly not a friend of Putin, but on objective consideration, I have a considerable understanding of Russia.
For far too long and too often, Russia has been labeled second-rate in the West and treated like a banana republic. Any Russian interests were important zero and were ignored. Russia has often complained enough and said that this is not the case, but "who cares" was our reaction in the West.
This is a very bad behavior of us and the story shows that it is very dangerous to irritate the Russian bear too much. That always went bad for the other ... and all our evil behavior has been beating us like a boomerang for about 10 years!
The whole world knows that Central America and the Caribbean are the direct sphere of influence and the front yard of the USA and the US tolerate no appreciable disturbance, regardless of losses.
The Russians also have such a front yard, but not only do we make a disturbance, but we also have a party with our middle finger in the direction of Moscow! At some point, the measure is also full for Russia ....

Suppose the crazy bastard in Venezuela, who is actually floating in oil in bulk, but is bankrupt, is joining forces with China, who are incredibly thirsty for oil and have a lot of money. Let's assume the two become big friends and Venezuela allows Chinese bases in Venezuela ... Washington is running amuck and that Venezuela as a sovereign state can actually do what it wants will not interest anyone in Washington!

Only this is what we do in the Russian front yard and wound us when Putin gets angry? Are the governments and all those who call "bad Putin" really meanwhile totally stupid in the West?

 

Again you repeat tolerant nonsense. Tell me, for you, Dr. Mengel is a scientist and a doctor, or is he a sadist and a mass murderer? Benito Mussolini said that fascism is good. Do you mean that people can propagate fascism if they love Mussolini?

If we are talking about Jews, we must not forget their basic teaching of Judaism, in which the Talmud is considered sacred. Have you read the Talmud? I advise you to read. All the propaganda teachings of Hitler, Goebbels and other famous characters are more peaceful than the Talmud. The Talmud is the ancestor of Zionism, and Zionism is the progenitor of fascism and all other man-hating theories. Including Wahhabism.
Some time ago, I showed quotes from the Talmud, but I received a warning for inciting ethnic hatred. In other words, quotes from the Talmud are misanthropic and much more intolerant than quotations such as Mussolini.
Therefore, to say that Israel considers Hezdol a terrorist organization is nonsense. Israel itself is a terrorist state.
I could gladly quote the Talmud, but I'm afraid of getting a ban.

The FSA is a terrorist organization. And no matter how it is called the Turks. If Franco called Hitler a good guy, it does not mean that it is so. Is not it?

 

Just a friendly suggestion: get back on-topic or you'll have all your "off-topic" posts deleted. I've had that happen to me before in a different thread and it is not pleasant. Again, it's just a friendly suggestion.

Russia under Putin has been an interesting phenomenon to observe, and especially considering what Russia has done and caused in the world during the past five years these enormous military maneuvers should be no surprise.

Always remember one thing about Vladimir Putin: he is an ARDENT Russian nationalist who loves nothing in this world more than his beloved 'Mother-Russia' (the Rodina). He will do anything and everything to preserve his country, guarantee its freedom and security, and protect it from anything and anyone that he considers to be a threat or a hindrance. He is the kind of "Russian" that fought with such ferocity and total sacrifice in epic battles like that of Stalingrad during World War II. But instead of charging against a powerful Wehrmacht foe with nothing but courage and a rifle with no ammunition, this man is in command of an armed force that is very powerful, fully-armed, and comprised of bleeding-edge technology -- best-in-class!

We don't have to love Putin. Indeed, we Americans would do well to START LOVING OUR OWN COUNTRY AS MUCH AS PUTIN LOVES HIS! But, barring that, since we're mired in a political 'civil war' now, we'd at least better start to understand and respect the determination and ability of a man like Putin, or suffer the consequences. We do nothing but compound one error after another when we mindlessly and thoughtlessly underestimate any opponent or adversary... especially one as intelligent, experienced, and powerful as Vladimir Putin is!

. Now, imagine TWO guys as intelligent, well-equipped, and powerful as that!