Then why do so many pro-life people do no insist on curtailing industrial pollution, fossil fuel emissions, and pesticide use? After all, we do not know their exact effects on humans, but we know from animal studies that such activities are very detrimental to fetal health, to the extent that spontaneous abortions can occur. So, why the dissociation? Given that 2/3s of natural conceptions end in spontaneous, non-medical abortions and we don't know what the natural rate is (no one studied this before the industrial revolution, after all), we have to assume that at least some of them are from industrial sources and that their number vastly outdoes the number of elective abortions being done today. Why aren't there pro-life people in the streets demanding less industrial pollution and demanding more alternative energy sources?
Because they are repub/Conservatives, they don't believe in science or pollution....they think everything if just fine as long as poluters make money.
So, several other abortion threads are simply exploding with posts, while this one gets only a single reply in the same time. Now, do pro-life people simply not have an answer? Without an answer, I'm essentially forced to consider that "pro-life" people really aren't pro-life, but simply wish to be punitive to women they think are sluts. If I cannot get an answer, it looks like the pro-life position is an ill-thought, reactionary position that simply exists as one that is simply an extension of misogyny and not actually any sort of philosophy that holds life dear. So, again, to the pro-life people: if you really care about the fetus, do you or do you not think that there should be greater regulation on the myriad of pollutants from all sources that poison the unborn? Do corporate profits outweigh, in your own words, murder? I am forced to accept the idea that pro-lifers prefer poison and profit over human life if I don't hear otherwise.
I do not have a problem with curtailing pollution, at least not fundamentally. The problem I have is how certain politicians and crazy greenies want to do this. What exactly does "curtailing" mean? You can curtail your pollution, I try to minimize mine. But how do you make someone else curtail theirs? I am not against a proportional tax on carbon dioxide emissions, but the question I have is what exactly this tax should be. Seems like sell-out greenie politicians have tried to collude with financial firms in the past to support corrupt trading permit schemes. There is not a direct link between CO2 and people dying, whereas with abortion the connection is much more clear. Of course, I wholeheartedly support any efforts to prevent mercury from being dumped in the rivers. And I also wish more attention was given to the phenomena of noise pollution. Why don't liberals give any attention to noise pollution? Do they care about animals more than humans?
Why not legislation? If it saves even one fetus, then any legislation at all would be justified, no? The politicians who want to have carbon trading are pretty (*)(*)(*)(*)ing stupid, if you ask me. Luckily, legitimate Greens think such schemes are just smoke and mirrors. When I mentioned industrial pollutants, I had things like mercury, lead, soot, and other such nasties in mind. Most pro-life people don't seem upset about them, though, despite the fact that they probably cause more fetuses to die than legalized abortions. Because, let's consider this: 1/2-2/3 of conceptions result in spontaneous abortions. There is going to be a natural spontaneous abortion rate just due to natural chromosomal anomalies, the mother's immune system rejecting the fetus due to some oddity of biology, and so on. However, if even just 1/10th of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted due to pollution, we can figure out a rough rate of fetuses killed by industrial pollution. Now, the CIA world factbook says that per annum the birth rate per 1,000 people is 19.14, which means that per year recently means there are approximately 134 million births. Just to have a very conservative estimate, we'll say that means there were approximately 268 million conceptions. So, if even just 1/10th of conceptions were terminated last year due to industrial pollutants, that means that over 26 million were killed from industrial pollution. If the rate is closer to 1/3, then that shoots up to nearly 90 million dead from industrial pollution. I suspect it's much closer to the latter than the former, given that industrial pollution is much greater in poorer nations, which also tend to have much higher birth rates. This, by far, is a much larger threat than free access to legalized abortion (estimated worldwide medical abortions per year is around 40 million). So, why aren't there protests in front of fertilizer companies, in front of oil derricks, in front of coal-burning power plants, and the like? Bikes and walking are much more quiet than cars.
Whoops! I made a bit of a mistake there. I forgot to think that the CIA World Factbook wouldn't include those 40 million abortions per year into the fertility question, which brings us from 134 million to 174 million, which gets us to 348 million conceptions. In which case, if 1/10 of spontaneous abortions are caused by pollution, that means there are nearly 35 million dead fetuses for which pollution is responsible, whereas if it is 1/3 are caused by pollution, that number goes up to approximately 115 million. Again, I'm leaning more heavily towards the the higher number because the regions of the world with the most pregnant people tend to be the poorest which are also usually the most polluted.
So because we simply are pro-life, that means we should solve all the worlds problems? Why are there pro-aborts helping with all this? Helping with the poor, underprivileged, helping feed and clothe those who don't have anything? Why aren't they donating to organizations that help mankind be better? Why do they seem to be the PROBLEM? Why do they always blame and never take responsibility for anything? Please allow me to educate you. When we talk about abortion we are talking about premeditation. We are talking about the hired hit on a unborn baby in the womb. Of course spontaneous abortion happens at no ones fault. We are not talking about that. We are talking about abortion for profit....hiring someone to kill, in this case someone who can't defend itself. Since Row...over 55 million abortions have happened. NONE OF THEM HAVE TO DO WITH OUR INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY, POLLUTION, GLOBAL WARMING, ETC. They have a lot to do with people who do not value life, who have no moral compass and who like Hitler thought killing could quickly solve problems.
Akhlut said, Yes, outlawing abortion on demand...how many would that save? You seem to speak for a lot of people you have no way of knowing what they really care about. And when you post statistics.....name the source. We are talking about women who hire someone to KILL their living unborn child. This has nothing to do with nature on its own. Why are you trying to change the focus off of people like you wo support this killing? And your source? And how do you know how many women miscarry? It would be impossible to know the accurate stat on this. Many women miscarry and don't know it. I do not consider this abortion...because it is not planned. Abortion today...when you mention the term....people know, its the hire hit on a living child in the womb.
You are thinking it too much What is the purpose of procreation? to ensure the survival of the species How many are we ? over 7 billions How many births we have per year? over 200 millions Are abortions a threat to the survival of the species ? No So let people have them .
Since industrial pollutants probably kill at least as many fetuses as abortion, if not a much larger number, then it makes sense that if you want to actually stop fetuses from being killed, it is much better to focus on the larger problem: industrial pollution. Otherwise, it's pretty hypocritical. Most pro-choice people I know are very pro-environment and take as many steps as they feasibly can to help stop industrial pollutants from being released. So, to that end, they seem much more pro-life than most pro-lifers I know. Most of these companies that release industrial pollutants into the world do so at tremendous profit; far more than what any abortion-providing doctor cares to make. And why should intent matter? Dead is dead is dead. We lock up drunk-drivers just as surely as we lock up mafioso. If you really cared, you'd be protesting in front of industrial polluters, because they likely kill far more fetuses than any abortion provider ever could. Using my numbers above, we can estimate that, globally, there have likely been close to a billion fetuses killed worldwide from industrial pollution in the last 10 years. 1 billion medical abortions worldwide since 1980 versus 1 billion pollutant caused abortions since 2003. Which fight makes more sense to you? If you really cared, would you want to stop them regardless of cause or is manslaughter for profit tolerable? Just like releasing gigatons of pollutants into the planet at large for profit, with no regard for the damage they inflict? After all, no one thinks that the German industrialists who profited from Nazi slave labor were really better than the SS troops who committed mass murder.
Akhlut said, Maybe its the topic? It does not address the real focus....abortion, the hired hit on life. That has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Yours is more a global health issue. Which is important....and I agree that we should be more careful about how we live and treat the earth...but most threads deal with abortion on demand to solve problems. No, we don't have all the answers, should we? Do you? Do the pro-choice/aborters have all the answers? They think they do. You are one of THEM. You obviously do not care about the life in the womb. That is sad don't you think? You stand in the line with those who think killing an unborn throughout nine months of pregnancy is ok. Do you know about fetal development? Do you know what happens at conception? When the heart starts beating? Have you ever seen a sonogram on those you think deserve death by dissection? And who here is barbaric? Not me. You want it legal....I don't. So who values, really values life? Not you. We believe there are answers...but one of them is not abortion. Shouldn't a person be responsible for their own actions? And if one of those actions....were having sex, taking the risk to get pregnant.......shouldn't the humane thing to do would be to allow what you created....to live, to be born? We know too much about fetal development to turn and walk away. I don't think that all women are sluts. It is their business who they sleep with and how many they sleep with. But when that sleeping with kills one or most the time multiple unborns, is this right? We have pro-aborts on here who say.....we should limit the number of abortions women have. LOL Why? If abortion is their right when its their body....then why tell them what they can do with it? If abortion is bad....why defend it? If it isn't bad then what is wrong with a woman using abortion as birth control? And if its her body...then shouldn't she be allowed control of it throughout nine months? That means if she want to kill at eight-nine months...that would be ok. ARe you one of those hypocrites...who want to deny her the right to her body? Or do you stand proud, and allow her total killing rights? I work in this field both at a Right to Life office and with a group Silent No More...also at a CPC. I know what goes on. I travel to educate people at universities, colleges, country fairs, expos....carnivals. I stand outside high schools and middle schools handing out information. We march, we demonstrate and we work trying to get laws changed. There are not enough of us to go around. It is hard work. We can't be every place all the time. Tell me what the pro-choice/abort side does, beside sit back and point fingers. What do you do to make a difference?
Probably not that many; abortions have always been around and it's not that difficult to do in secrecy. Whereas outlawing industrial pollution has immediate benefits for everyone. World birth rate is from the CIA World Factbook. Spontaneous abortion rate is from: http://www.emcom.ca/health/abortion.shtml Estimates on how much of that rate is due to pollution: there are no sources because no one can even do the study due to the ubiquitous nature of pollution and human ethical concerns, however, half of all spontaneous abortions in the first trimester have chromosomal abnormalities (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7450760). We know pollutants can cause such abnormalities in utero (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/feb2005/niehs-15.htm just to give one study out of hundreds for both humans and other animals), however, so we can make a few assumptions, which is why I give a range instead of a hard number. Given the overwhelming support that pollutants cause chromosomal damage and damage to reproductive organs, though, it's not really a big leap to say that pollutants can and do cause spontaneous abortions and likely in a very large number. Sourced above. Sorry, the scientific term for any loss of a fetus is termed an abortion; spontaneous for when it occurs without an apparent cause, and medical if a doctor performs it. If you don't like it, too bad, so sad, that's how the terminology works. I give what I can to charity, I do what I can to reduce pollution, and I do what I can to ensure that people can live a good life. That doesn't mean I can't ask why anti-choice people aren't doing something more productive than calling women going to abortion clinics sluts and murderers.
Akhlut saidn You have no way of knowing do you? You are guessing. It would not matter if we worked tirelessly on this....abortion is still legal and all that we might save by doing something could still be aborted. Why don't you do something about it. As I have explained we can't do everything....there are not enough of us to do all the work to solve all the worlds problems. You simply make abortion legal...and look how many ya save. Why can't you get this concept? Most pro-choice people are very liberal and basically are humanists...most seem to reject god, and believe there is no such thing as one right answer...no right or wrong. They care more about the environment and the world than they do...those who live in it. They think the animal kingdom is equal to humans. And they blame everyone but themselves for the worlds problems. They are great at pointing the finger. They don't want to work together...they want to dictate to those who oppose them...what to do. Obama is doing that. He does not want to work across the aisle...its his way or the highway. Well where should these industrialize pollutants go? If they shut down all the factories....how would that affect your life? Should we ban using cars? Trains? Subways? Planes, Boats. Should we ban cigarettes? Alcohol? Should we ban the things we fertilize our yards with...clean our houses with? Should we make all medicines illegal? Should we ban all substances that might have an effect on our bodies? Should we ban scubba diving....might hurt the underwater environment ya know? Should we ban guns...so that we can't kill even animals to eat? Killing animals....bad and inhumane thing...right? So no killing animals. We will all be vegetarians...even the people who live in the desert. And they would not be able to get vegetables that easy...cause we have banned car or trucks from bringing them food. How livable is that world today? Abortion doctors have one goal in mind. Their goal is to kill the living child in the womb. End of story. That has nothing to do with that you are talking about here. I am marching to stop the slaughter of abortion. Why don't you stand and protest industrial polluters? Or don't you care? Or are you just bringing this subject up to divert the real issue....the slaughter of millions of babies since Roe was made law? And your source? Ya never give a source, why? Do you like to make things up as you go along? LOL And hey why don't you add the number of abortions in the world performed by abortionists since the beginning of time...and then tell us what the new number would be. Whats that number? You help to paint a bullseye on every living thing in the womb....... Mass murder is going on today...and you just turn you head and forget it is even happening.
Akhlut said, Hey you seem to be the numbers person...give me a figure. Sure abortions have always been around, so what? It is legal today...so what are the numbers? I am not talking about the secret abortions...I am talking about the legal ones. So get your calculator out. My work deals with the unborn. Tell me why there aren't pro-choicers out in front of these places you talk about? See right there ya don't know. No sources...your guessing totally. What about legal....abortions going on? You support them right? What is your position? Hey if they do that is terrible. Why don't you do something about it? How many factories have you protested? Have you written letters or done anything since you think this is so bad? Or are you here primarily to bash those who can't possible solve everything related to this problem? My work deals with women who know they are pregnant who are carry a live baby....and who possibly want to hire a hit on it. I am talking and most threads here with abortion.......the hired hit on an already started human life. And life starts at conception. Scientific fact. Wow...like a few loads of clothes a year? That kind of charity. WEll that is sweet of you...but what do you do to really make a difference to the cause? How do you help people live a good life? I don't think your money is where your mouth is......sorry. I think you like pointing fingers, telling people that what they are doing isn't enough. I think you like to blame...and take no responsibility. I think you think killing is the solution. You could care less if pollutants kill fetuses....please. LOL I HAVE NEVER CALLED A WOMAN A NAME, and in the over ten years of going to abortion clinics and praying there...I have never once heard someone shout a name. Its the other way around...people like you shout the names ...and you are so ignorant on this...which shows that you truly have never been anywhere to see what pro-lifers do at abortion clinics. Now I am sure there are people out there that have. And I would be the first to say it is wrong. But you think the few that scream names are the face of what we do. And that is simply not the case. You have no clue. And you probably never will. - - - Updated - - -
Actually it's a very factual and logical statement. Human beings are presently very overpopulating the planet. At the rate we are going we will have used up all of our resources over the course of the next hundred years, probably less and life as we know it will be over. Once we have made this planet absolutely destitute and unlivable women will be flocking to have abortions just to spare their children the pain of dying a miserable death of starvation because there simply won't be enough resources for everyone. Life should be about quality, not quantity. More, more, more is not better, in fact it is worse. He's very right. Abortions are not threatening our survival as a species in the slightest, in fact they are probably one of the few things, aside from disease, illness and war that are putting off our very miserable deaths as the population continues to increase at a phenomenonal rate! http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
EXTREME STRAWMAN EXTREME!!!! You have stooped to a new low. Where is your proof of this strawman assertion that pro lifers like pollution and pesticides? That is just as stupid as the common pro abortion beleif that all women want legalized abortion at will. Nonsense. - - - Updated - - - So your position is "beat the rush, kill your child now"? Answer this, would you support these women killing their born children if life became hard? If not you are a hypocrite!
Sorry but we are discussing abortion and I will not discuss anything but that in this forum. If you want to discuss infanticide you would kindly do so elsewhere. I'm not going to bite the bait of your little red herring.
You want to build strawmen and make red herrings. I'm not biting. Either discuss the actual topic at hand or don't, that's how it works. I am not obligated to answer about any other unrelated subjects to this issue that you think I am supportive of.
Hmmm.....should be make killing newborns legal until we figure out a possible or not possible link to fetal development and pollution? Pollution is irrelevant. The controversy is about when we can kill human life at whim.
I guess you are a religious person that sees humans as special beings with a purpose , i am not religious and humans are just another animal. I trust the judgement of adults when they chose not to pass their genes . I come from a family with very high rates of cancer , heart diseases and because i come from a very small place down syndrome , why would i want to have kids ? good genes pass and bad ones die out, this is the correct order of things and how our species evolves for the better.
One does NOT have to be a person of religion or faith to know abortion is wrong. Then don't have kids...but don't conceive and then kill them. If you don't want to have children...get sterilized. Why do you think we are on earth? What is our purpose?
