Bowerbird said, I doubt that....I work in the field and most are pro-life. Cop-out sorry - and one I am disinclined to allow to stand But your choice includes killing a living human being. I think that is immoral. The perfect solution for your position...pro-choice, is killing. Is there something wrong with abortion? You seem to imply that there is...or you wouldn't say, "if they come up with a perfect solution." Abortion isn't perfect? I thought it was a womans choice....? I thought it was not a human being...according to pro-choicers? I am not talking about miscarriage...I am speaking to abortion...the premeditated hit on a living human being. Strawman And hyperbole[/QUOTE]
I have no problem with ending pollution. We have no right to turn the Earth into our garbage dump. But Conservatives want to protect their coal and oil investments and tell us that coal is "clean." I wonder if they'd want a coal power plant in their backyard.
Then why did most Christians prior to the 1970s, roughly, not think it was wrong? Especially Christians prior to the 1900s. After all, John Calvin, founder of one of the major branches of Protestantism, executed pregnant women for engaging in premarital sex without regard for the fetus within her, while Judaism and pre-20th century Christianity were totally fine with abortion prior to "quickening". Hell, YHWH gave the priests of Israel a recipe for an abortion potion, while Jesus, being omniscient and all, didn't see fit to say that the women in the Levant should avoid taking the herbs that caused abortions (they were very popular in the Mediterranean at the time). Nor did any Church father for thousands of years. So, one can be very religious indeed and not see abortions as morally wrong. Apparently, one can even be a deity of a religion and give a prescription for abortions! So, what do you suggest married couples do when their contraception fails and they can't afford a child or don't want a child then and the mother doesn't want to deal with 9 months of pregnancy? Not have sex? Because that doesn't lead to a lack of intimacy in a marriage. :V Well, propagating like bacteria until we exhaust all of our resources probably isn't the best idea, because when bacteria eat every nutrient in a petri dish, they all die. So, at the very least, not having a method of controlling our population isn't a poor idea.
You do realize that only 2% of abortions happen at a point where the fetus can live independently of the mother, right? And of those, the vast, vast majority of which are medically necessary because the mother's life is in danger? So, that's a non sequitor. So, you're okay with ~1 billion dead children (by your own definition) per decade because corporations can't be asked to stop polluting?
Newborns can't live independently either....so that's your justification of killing human life, not mine. And the vast majority has nothing to do with what is medically necessary for the mother. If it was reality...no I wouldn't be okay with it. But its not reality....its fiction.
Why do lifers have such difficulty comprehending what we mean when we say, "independently from the mother"? What we mean is, the neonate's organs can sustain it's living functions without needing to be physically attached to another human being for physical life support. After birth anyone can take care of it's social needs, before birth only the woman can provide life support for it's Biological functions.
and as I said.....that is your justification. In India there is a culture that justifies killing newborn girls. They consider their justification entirely logical. That has nothing to do whether it is human life....it simply has to do with when you choose to kill it at whim. "Death by pollution" is just a pathetic non-issue ..
That is a culture issue, nothing to do with imposing law onto a woman .. oh and by the way it is illegal in India to do so. It has a lot more to do than killing on a "whim", in their culture a male child is wanted due to its supposed elevated position, women in India are basically property (which is similar to what pro-lifers want)
Yes, that's solely why a 6 week old fetus, which hasn't even completed organogenesis, can live outside of the uterus, whereas a 37 week old can live outside of a uterus being cared for by any given competent human being. :V http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/200...pollution-linked-to-higher-miscarriage-rates/ The exact rate is unknown, but no scientist seriously thinks that pollution doesn't induce miscarriages. And, given that pollution is worse in the areas with the highest rates of childbirth (people in impoverished nations tend to have much higher birthrates), that means there are going to be more miscarriages due to pollution in those areas. But, hey, given the number of anti-choice people who are science-illiterate, this is not exactly surprising that they would deny the link there, either.
What don't you get? I am anti-choice and proud of it. Your pro-choice abortion and obviously you are proud of it. You want abortion legal, you want no protection for the unborn, none. You are using pollution to justify your abortion position. But if there was no such thing as pollution....you still are left with pregnant women who don't want to be pregnant...who want to kill to solve the problem they have gotten themselves into. And abortion is a hired, premeditated hit on a living human being. It is premeditated....it kills.....that which is in the womb. And that which is in the womb...is not a rock, or a computer chip or a bunch of grapes. It has human DNA...and if left alone will sooner or later be born. Born as helpless outside the womb as it was inside the womb. You would not say the things you do if you knew science...because it is not on your side. A human life however small it is...starts at conception....not birth. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH POLLUTION. - - - Updated - - - Not so....pro-choicers want life similar to what Hitler wanted. You agree of course, right? LOL Isn't the pro-abort position similar if not exactly what Hitler proposed?
Oh I get it. But that happens when? And then if you deny the womb the right to abort when this happens...you take the right to her body away from her and then your anti-choice....right? How can you do this with all good conscience?
And the pro-aborts here support killing the unborn for all sorts of reasons...in fact no reason is to stupid. So they most likely would agree with what they do in India. It is of course that which is in the womb for them is nothing...not really totally human, not viable because it can't recite its time tables and figure out a checking account. The unborn is expendable....and nothing in the grande scheme of things.
(emphasis added) And there we have the real reason why you're anti-choice: because you see pregnancy and children as a punishment for women who have the temerity to want to have sex. It's never really about seeing the fetus as an actual human being, but as a divine punishment for having the gall to be sexual. Firstly: the grand majority of abortions happen well before there is anything like a brain even remotely capable of even the most rudimentary of thought, due to the fact that the brain is still morphing around due to development (hence why drinking alcohol during early pregnancy can cause fetal alcohol syndrome, whereas drinking late in pregnancy, while not exactly the greatest of ideas, generally doesn't cause the same sorts of issues). Nearly all late term abortions are done on when the pregnancy is wanted and desired by the mother but only terminated due to extreme health concerns on behalf of the mother. Plus, seeing as you seem to be a Christian, why do you care when every theologian prior to the 20th century basically said that anything that ended a pregnancy before the quickening was a-ok, if they even deigned to say anything about abortion at all (despite ruminations on the deep theological concerns of, say, menstruation, eating meat on certain days, and the number of fingers needed to make the sign of the cross)? Even the book of Exodus states that "[w]hen men fight and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other misfortune ensues, the one responsible shall be fined as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on judges’ reckoning. But if other misfortune ensues, the penalty shall be life for life", so it's not like it even has Biblical support. And YHWH also brewed up an abortion potion to be used in Numbers. And if you truly believed that, why do you not care about pollution? I've provided evidence showing pollution induces spontaneous abortion, yet you continually state that you don't care about that. Death is death, is it not?
Akhlut said, Did they? Could you give proof of this? You talked to everyone to know this? We would not be debating this still after all these years since Roe...if a big percentage of people DID NOT WANT ABORTION LEGAL. We are not a small number...and we are making changes to the law state by state. I am not a Calvinist...in fact I think he was a heretic. If he executed pregnant women then most likely he was not a practicing Christian that took the scriptures seriously. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. And just because a segment of the population thinks its ok....does not mean its ok. Most the South owned slaves...the majority. WAs it right? You tell me. If Calvin was alive today and I got the opportunity to ask him to defend his position if he did what you accuse him of doing.....and I told him to use the scriptures....he could not do it. Could you site your information please...so I can address the information...not your interpretation of it. Jesus hated the religious. It is not about religion...being a Christian is about a relationship...the personal relationship one has with Christ. If people do not see abortion as wrong...then they have a problem...especially if they claim to be a Christian. Jesus did not condone abortion....he did not condone pedophelia.....or rape.....He loved children...and is the creator of all things....even the life in the womb. Man is a sinful being...and Christians sin...like everyone else. You hold us to standards that we can't possibly follow. This is why Christ came...this is what you don't get. And you fail to see that Christ gave us free will....free will to sin. If we did not sin...we would not need Christ. Without Christ one will die. With Christ one will live. They have the child and they put it up for adoption. Simple. Or they keep it and do the best they can. Killing should not be an option. Or better yet...they can both go and get sterilized. But once a life is created.....killing should not be an option. What happens if they have kids and he loses his job and they don't have enough money to buy food for all the kids. Should they kill one so the others can live? What if one of the child is handicapped and more of a burden...should they one has less right to live than the healthy ones who can take care of themselves? I think all children in the womb of Democrats should be killed. I think all unborns of unbelievers should be killed, I think all unborns that might be gay should be killed, I think we have to many blondes in this country....they have to much fun...so they should be aborted....I think the Mexicans are taking over the US....so all Mexican babies should be aborted to even out the birth rates......and all babies should be aborted whose parents don't have a college degree.....and all those babies who might never reach the height of 5'5....and abort unborn girls...to even out the numbers of boys vs girls....and abort all the children whose parents make less than 100,000$ a year.....and..... Boy we can find a lot of reasons to force abortion on people......can't we? All these reasons are good ones aren't they?
Akhlut said, I am anti-choice because I do not believe that a woman has the right to kill a newly created living human being. I am anti-choice when it comes to abortion yes. I also am anti-choice rape, pedophelia, murder, and stealing. I am anti-choice slavery too. Is being anti-choice wrong? ARe you anti-choice any of the things I just mentioned? LOL I am not pro-abortion like you are. I do not celebrate the killing of living children in the womb. So for you to tell me I hate children....and base it on our opposing positions....you being the pro-abort...is laughable. You are the ones who hate children...especially in the womb. Your the ones that do not want protection for them. Not me. Your anti-children. Right? You think killing them solves problems. That is what Hitler thought...can't you see that? Killing solves problems...both for individuals and society. Your on board that line of reasoning. Of course you won't admit it. Who wants to be associated with Hitler....not me. So no pro-abort will admit the truth of these similar philosophies. This issue is not about the right to have sex. Women have the right to have sex...to have children, for enjoyment...whatever. But they should not have the right if birth control fails...to kill what they created,,,WHAT IS LIVING. Our bodies were made for specific purposes....and the woman is the sex that has the capability to give birth to a child. It is her responsibility once this happens. She knows this going in.....because every female knows what can happen if they have sex. Birth control fails....pregnancy always can happen unless she takes measures to make sure it does not....sterilization. You are desperately trying to make yourself believe that abortion is ok. The brain is not fully functioning...etc etc....The fact is at around 20 days the heart starts beating. and no one can live without a heart beating. So no matter how much you try to justify killing....it just won't fly. My niece was born at around 231/2 weeks. She spent over 5 month sin the hospital. Why? Because her lungs were not fully developed. In fact she did not have a bridge to her nose yet and her bottom crack was barely there. You could see the blood running thru her veins...and her entire arm fit through my brother in laws wedding ring. She had so many operations on her that they lost count. But she was a living human being.....and did not have a fully functioning body. So don't feed me the bull....that she was not a living human being...who deserved rights. I don't care what they said. They are just human as human as I am. I don't take what anyone says seriously....because they can seem right...and be wrong. I only follow the scriptures. I listen to sermons...but take it with a grain of salt. The POPE is a human being and can sin. Pastors and clergy throughout the world can be wrong about theology. All one needs to do is to read for themselves...it is easy to understand what and how Jesus wanted us to live. I can't answer all the questions I have about things I am confused about...but so what. One day they will be answered. PEOPLE ARE HUMAN....AND FALLIBLE. I follow Christ....not any man of god on earth. And God had different laws, rules for a time when people did not have Christ. This was Old Testament times. I live under the New Covenant...and should be concerned about that. We do not kill homosexuals or adulterers (leviticus)....sex sin might be wrong, but God handles it differently as we should. Who says I don't care about pollution? Of course I care about pollution. As much as aborting babies....no. It might have an affect on miscarriages I have not studied this to know one way or another. I am concerned with an already human life started....whose mother hires to have it killed. A society that does not value life.
Why of course CM, if you say it isn't right then that must be, god forbid that someone would actually have a different viewpoint or even provide proof to their opinion, of course that proof would almost certainly be biased or wrong according to you .. but hey we can all bow to the almighty powerfull CM who knows everything. but just on the very, very small chance you actually take in anything - http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/01/16/it’s-a-girl-the-three-deadliest-words-in-the-world/ and quoted from - http://abcnews.go.com/Health/women-pregnant-girls-pressured-abortions-india/story?id=15103950 and pro-lifers, despite what they say, are trying to lower the standing of females .. just as you like to try and get pro-choicers to admit "it's murder", you should admit that is the goal .. punishment for sex and the lowering of women.
Fugazi said Thank you...was that so hard to admit? I have seen these before even posted them in a thread. "and pro-lifers, despite what they say, are trying to lower the standing of females .. just as you like to try and get pro-choicers to admit "it's murder", you should admit that is the goal .. punishment for sex and the lowering of women." Because we do not believe that females have the right to kill living human babies...you say we want to lower their standards? So to have high standards they have to be able to kill, right?
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you don't recognize sarcasm. So your previous response saying "not so .. " was in fact wrong. I didn't say standards, so please don't put words into my mouth, I said standing and yes you do want to lower their standing
They also do not insist on the availability of health care or viable living conditions, or even availabel food. But to your question...why? Because those pro-life people have an unhealthy fixation on fetuses. But they secretly despise people. Once the fetus is birthed, they could care less about what happens to it. It could be BBQ for all they care
