Illinois teen arrested in fatal shooting at Kenosha protest, police say

Discussion in 'United States' started by MissingMayor, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. HurricaneDitka

    HurricaneDitka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2020
    Messages:
    7,155
    Likes Received:
    6,476
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here's my summary after watching:

    The prosecution asked that Kyle's interactions with the police on the night of the self-defense shootings (they saw him, had cordial interactions with him, and did not, for example, arrest him for unlawful possession of a firearm) be suppressed. Judge Schroeder DENIED that request.

    The judge indicated that he would not allow testimony from the experts about the various involved parties' intents. I'm not sure if that's going to cut more against the prosecution or defense. He indicated that he would likely allow the defense's use-of-force expert to testify on technical / scientific / timing matters or aspects of human behavior, perception, etc, but that neither the defense nor the prosecution's experts would not be allowed to testify about conclusions or overall impression on the question at issue in the trial. The prosecution's motion to suppress the defense's use-of-force expert's testimony at trial was DENIED. The prosecution indicated they do not plan to call their own use-of-force expert at trial.

    The prosecution's motion to disallow the labeling of the pedo and his pals as "looters" or "rioters" or "arsonists" was DENIED. If the defense has evidence that they were engaged in rioting / looting / arson, the defense can refer to them as such. He also admonished the prosecution that they can not refer to the pedo and his pals as "victims" or "alleged victims" because it's a loaded term. They can refer to them as "decedent" or "complaining witness". The judge noted that this rule (on "victim") is fairly unique to him. On this point, that's a pretty significant win for the defense.

    The prosecution's motion to disallow other video / other evidence that Kyle wasn't a direct witness to (e.g. pedo started a fire, used racial slurs, urged people to shoot him, etc.) was DENIED. The prosecutor kind of stepped on his own dick here too, trying to argue that it didn't matter if Rosenbaum (or the other shootee's) were the aggressors. From the prosecutor's perspective, it doesn't even matter if Rosenbaum was the aggressor, if an armed person shot an unarmed person, then he should be convicted. The judge (and defense counsel) beat him up pretty badly for this. The judge cited a circuit court opinion that said the question of who the aggressor was, was an "essential element" of the crime. The judge got pretty fired up during this part of the hearing, he seemed rather annoyed with the prosecution.

    The prosecution's motion to disallow discussion of the shootee's (and their estate's) civil claims was largely DENIED (some limited exception for the one that survived in case he testifies at trial).

    The prosecution's motion to ensure that all parties are referred to formally (e.g. Mr. ____ or Mrs. _____) was largely approved, with the exception that defense counsel can refer to Kyle as "Kyle".

    All in all it seems like a largely good day for the defense and a bad one for the prosecution, again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
    ToddWB, glitch and dbldrew like this.
  2. glitch

    glitch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2006
    Messages:
    13,607
    Likes Received:
    2,167
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Speculating about how the prosecution will present their case. Their initial strategy appeared to have been to make Kyle out to be a bad guy looking for trouble so the jury would have an unfavorable opinion of him. The judge largely shot that down, disallowing prosecutors presentation of Kyle having drinks in a bar with some characters he met there. The next argument appears to be the one you presented above, the disproportionate nature of an armed versus unarmed person. As you cited, from a legal perspective that is not a winning argument. Kyle had a very reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm whether the assailant was armed or not. The third approach I observed in the previous hearing. The prosecutor argued heavily that if Kyle was not armed then the attacker would not have been going for his weapon and thus Kyle's life would not have been in danger. So somehow Kyle is guilty of bringing a defense weapon to a riot, thus creating the dangerous situation. This argument did not come across as a serious argument to me, but I suppose he could be hoping for a jury with a disdain for weapons that could be swayed by this. I just am not seeing the prosecution at this point having any serious case.
     
    dbldrew, HurricaneDitka and ToddWB like this.
  3. dbldrew

    dbldrew Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2013
    Messages:
    1,813
    Likes Received:
    1,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is very telling, I was really wondering if the prosecution had some other information, video, witnesses etc that the public had not seen yet, that paints Kyle in a bad light here and that was why he was going forward with charging Kyle. Because everything we have seen has clearly pointed to self defense so it really didnt make sense why they where charging him. Apparently he is going against what the law states and going with his own personal beliefs. Thanks god the Judge is actually following the law here.. this Prosecuting attorney should not be in a place of power if he is trying to ruin someone's life and willing to ignore the laws to achieve that..
     
    glitch and HurricaneDitka like this.
  4. HurricaneDitka

    HurricaneDitka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2020
    Messages:
    7,155
    Likes Received:
    6,476
    Trophy Points:
    113
    On this point, the prosecution has alluded to an aerial surveillance video that they will be showing at trial which the prosecutor characterizes as showing Rittenhouse pursuing and confronting Rosenbaum immediately prior to Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse and the subsequent shooting. From memory, that initial confrontation is entirely verbal (and there's no audio), so even if the prosecution's characterization is accurate, I don't see how it helps their case much. They're essentially going to argue: Kyle followed pedo down the street and might have said something mean to him, so he can't claim self defense, which is, as you noted, going against what the law states. Like you, I'm a bit mystified about why he'd want to harm his career by pursuing this almost-sure-loser case. People do weird stuff: Nifong and the Duke lacrosse case, Angela Corey and George Zimmerman, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
    dbldrew and ToddWB like this.
  5. dbldrew

    dbldrew Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2013
    Messages:
    1,813
    Likes Received:
    1,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    yeah I have heard that they had areal video. but there is on the ground footage of the same thing, Kyle ran up to the pedo with a fire extinguisher and put out a second arson attempt and then got chased. Have no idea how the Prosecution thinks that stopping an arson attempt means you give up your right to self defense, I'm sure the defense will have a field day with that. Will see how it all plays out but it does not look good for the prosecution..
     
    HurricaneDitka likes this.
  6. HurricaneDitka

    HurricaneDitka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2020
    Messages:
    7,155
    Likes Received:
    6,476
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Agreed, but keep in mind that this is coming from a prosecution that was arguing yesterday that merely the act of being armed meant Kyle didn't have a right to defend himself. It's an absurd position, which is going to get ripped to shreds during the trial. Even the judge could scarcely believe he was trying to make that argument.
     
    dbldrew likes this.
  7. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    52,141
    Likes Received:
    23,315
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Win or lose, prosecuting this case makes you a hero to the left, so I think there are lots of benefits to an ambitious prosecutor for following up.

    Anyway, this trial's verdict is going to be made with jury selection, not with the facts of the case.
     
    ToddWB likes this.
  8. HurricaneDitka

    HurricaneDitka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2020
    Messages:
    7,155
    Likes Received:
    6,476
    Trophy Points:
    113
    While there's something to be said for that, Nifong thought the same thing, and he's about the farthest thing from anyone's hero now.

    Agreed. Jury selection will be critical. It's unfortunate that so much turns on the demographics of the jury and so little turns on the facts of the case. Sad state we're in.
     
  9. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    52,141
    Likes Received:
    23,315
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's been that way for awhile, otherwise OJ would have been convicted of murder.
     
    HurricaneDitka and ToddWB like this.
  10. HurricaneDitka

    HurricaneDitka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2020
    Messages:
    7,155
    Likes Received:
    6,476
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Kyle's self-defense trial started today:

     
  11. HurricaneDitka

    HurricaneDitka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2020
    Messages:
    7,155
    Likes Received:
    6,476
    Trophy Points:
    113
  12. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    12,637
    Likes Received:
    1,998
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Interesting:
     
  13. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,299
    Likes Received:
    5,504
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Nay defenders of the wrong people still here? Anyone still arguing that Kyle Rittnehouse needs to go to prison for wrongful actions? I dedicate this clip to you Black Knights
     
    modernpaladin likes this.
  14. gringo

    gringo Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    2,753
    Likes Received:
    2,005
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Rittenhouse should win an Oscar...

    anybody else notice despite while he was doing the crying routine

    HE DID NOT SHED A SINGLE TEAR

    hollywood..get ready a new kid is comng to town
     
  15. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    12,637
    Likes Received:
    1,998
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It wasn't a riot, it was an 'uprising':
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2021
  16. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    12,637
    Likes Received:
    1,998
    Trophy Points:
    113
    More nuanced than a lot of commentary;
     
  17. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    12,637
    Likes Received:
    1,998
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Scary:
     
  18. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2021
    Messages:
    3,272
    Likes Received:
    792
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That's how it all started.
     
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    28,300
    Likes Received:
    21,513
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I guess the closing arguments are monday? And then however long it takes the jury to reach a verdict. I think its going to come out in the middle of the week, not a weekend. Not sure if that'll have any effects on the riot plans...
     
  20. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    13,173
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What? Like the riot rats have to get up for work?
     
  21. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    12,637
    Likes Received:
    1,998
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In such a politically charged environment I probably would have stuck to the trial and not joked about anything.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2021
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    35,090
    Likes Received:
    11,435
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Oh... a low blow... and probably true...
     
  23. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    12,637
    Likes Received:
    1,998
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I still think he could have been more circumspect:
     
  24. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    12,721
    Likes Received:
    9,634
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The term victim for the people Rittenhouse killed is exactly what the entire trial is about.

    So it would have been extremely bad faith to have allowed that label be used at this time.

    That seems like a no brainer to me
     
    HurricaneDitka likes this.
  25. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    52,141
    Likes Received:
    23,315
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What happened to all of the left leaning posters in this thread?
     

Share This Page