Is the economy unfair to most Americans?

https://www.thebalance.com/income-inequality-in-america-3306190

 

Both Gates and Buffet recognise they should be paying more in taxes, while the country's infrastructure is deteriorating.

Provision of basic economic services, and above poverty employment for all, is the responsibility of government because individuals naturally attend to their own self-interest.

''You are living in poverty, your neighbourhoods are like war zones, your young men are in prison.. "

Hmm..those charities are certainly falling short....

Ah….The Deficit Myth....

www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/mmt-overcoming-the-political-divide.569365/

 

1. The deficit is real and the single most important issue imo.

2. Peoples neighborhoods are exactly what THEY make them. If people are in prison that's their fault except is very rare circumstances.

3. The governments ONLY responsibilities are
Providing for the national defense
Promoting the general welfare ( not specific welfare)
Ensuring domestic tranquility


People are supposed to be looking out for their own interests!!!!!

Its when people don't or won't that we have problems..

If a man will not work he shall not eat!.

 

This IS the most important issue, and it boils down to "How can we pay for (social programs)".

Explained here:

www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/mmt-overcoming-the-political-divide.569365/

 

I'm not going to another link..

It boils down to we need a lot less social programs and we need people to stand on their own two feet. It's time for people to take responsibility for themselves and their families, like families have done for centuries.

If there is a problem government is the absolute worst one to solve it as government doesn't solve problems it creates them.

 

The economy is by nature unfair to workers and has always been. Employers are constantly trying to keep staffing costs as low as possible to increase their profits, they will keep employee benefits as low as possible, companies try to make their prices as high as possible, and companies will make shortcuts with their products to reduce cost. If companies can work together to set prices and keep wages down or achieve monopoly and kill the small businesses, they will. They will replace their workers by machines, outsource labor, use shoddy products, stagnate wages, drive up prices, and more if they could.

The rich and powerful control the wages of everyone else and how wealth is allocated and of course will try to maximize their own wealth and minimize that of their workers. With the massive fortunes they have, they can invest most of their earnings, and earn ludicrous amounts of money, while most people just try to afford the rising cost of living. Power corrupts, and so does financial power, and corporate executives and corporations that will abuse their power if given the chance.

This is why we have the government that is appointed by the people. With democracy, the people can control the excesses of the government, and with the government, the people can control the excesses of corporations. If the economy is unfair to workers and abuses are taking place, the fault is with the workers and the voters for allowing this to continue.

 

I disagree

 

Your choice: so you are not interested in learning that government does not need to tax (or borrow) in order to spend.

 

If its important to your point you can recap it here.

 

How's it been unfair to me? I've done quite well in our economy. And you do not understand how companies manage to cost of labor. Tell me why don't all business just pay minimum wage for all jobs? If paying the lowest possible of labor why not pay the lowest possible wages? And why don't business just double or triple their prices tomorrow and make even more money? And if companies worked together to set prices then they will be prosecuted for violating the law.

Why is it in the best interest of these rich and powerful to make everyone else poor?

Define "excess of corporations". How has an "excess of a corporation" effected your life to the negative and made the economy unfair to you? The fact is if as a worker you depend on and expect government to make things "fair" for you you will get nowhere. I've never had government intercede between me an employer. The two times I did had a third party do so, a union, it held back my wages and advancement.

 

Where is it more "fair" than the United States? A Leftist liberal would say that life is much more fair under Socialism, but is it "fair" to make working taxpayers who DO support themselves and the nation, to give handout welfare, subsidies, and other 'free stuff' to a parasite class that can't/won't/don't support itself adequately...?

Here, in a country with a capitalist, free-market economy, you have a CHOICE. You can do what you like (so long as it does not break the law). If you want to be a bricklayer, a 'rocket scientist', a whatever, you can do that -- just go DO it. If you want to be a worthless slug and sit around on your ass all day, thinking 'great thoughts' and playing around on your phone with your little friends, you can do that, too -- but don't expect that working taxpayers are going to want to pay for your living expenses.

Hint: Life itself is NOT fair! It never has been "fair"! Get that through your heads! You MAKE your own 'fairness'... and you, and YOU ALONE are responsible for your own success or failure. If you want somebody to tell you what to do, go look in the mirror! Or, you can always immigrate to North Korea... totalitarian governments are very good at telling people what to do....

. "See?! Under Socialism, food and money grow on TREES!"

 

The government already does a lot of things to help workers and even the scales. We have social security for the elderly. We have Medicare and Medicaid for the vulnerable. We have anti-trust laws to prevent monopolies. We have safety and environmental regulations for companies. We have regulations to help employees like overtime pay, minimum wage, safety regulations for employees, and union laws in some states. We have regulations on banks and the stock market to prevent crashes from excesses in these organizations. We have a progressive income tax to make sure the wealthy give back a bit. We have public funding of education to give people opportunities to make a better life for themselves. And chances are, at some point these measures have helped you.

The free market isn't perfect and not particularly fair. The rich and powerful will always try to use their power to help themselves if they can, that is just human nature. Life in general is never fair and some bad stuff happens on a daily basis. That is why the people have the power to appoint representatives to help make things a little better for workers and consumers.

The reason companies don't slash wages and jack up prices is because they will lose labor and consumers. The free market is like a balance between the interests of the people and those of the rich and powerful. The rich and powerful will always try to jack up prices whenever they can and cut wages, while the people will look for low prices and higher wages. But in many cases, that balance is tipped in favor of the big corporations and executives. Many of our existing laws helps reduce some of these problems but we still have some inequities. Like drug companies that jack up prices on life-saving drugs. Or corporations that replace their workers with machines and foreign labor to boost the profits for people at the top.

 

No one has said it is perfect but it is the most perfect out there. And it is most perfect with the least government involvement. YES government should enforce laws such as contract law and health and safety laws and disclosure laws, and standards laws and yes against monopolistic practices. And I would much preferred to have had my FICA taxes not withheld and used to fund my own retirement and health.

But it still remains free market capitalism offers the best opportunities for the most people and the highest standards of living and the least poverty than ANY OTHER SYSTEM.

DUH, that's why companies can't just pay the "least possible", I have run businesses and hired people and it's not a matter of hiring the person who will take the least salary or doing everything I could to keep those salaries low. What the cost of that labor is is a reflection for the quality of the labor and the value of the job to the employer. I have been on commissions for 40 years, it pays well. But most people will not take that risk, they are too scared to trust their own talents and want a more secure regular income. That's their choice but they don't have a right to then scream how unfair is the economy. Same with prices I wish I could charge my customers list price+. But because it is a free market capitalistic economy I have competition. Competition keeps prices low, innovation and quality high. Companies who merely cut wages and jack prices don't last very long. The reason we have life saving drugs, because people can join together in a company and produce them and make a fair return on their investment. And drug companies make average profits compared to other industries.

Yes we replaced a lot of labor intensive jobs with automation. Just look at our phone systems of today versus in the early party of the 20th century. Would we be better off not having automated and still require tens of thousands of "operators" to connect calls? Those jobs were replace and new better jobs, better paying jobs replaced them. Yes because those evil corporate heads saw they could operate more efficiently but replacing that labor and provide a better product to their customers.

 

So we both agree that there are problems with an uninhibited free market and we do need contract law and health and safety laws and disclosure laws, and standards laws and yes against monopolistic practices. This is because the free market is not perfect, just like you said, and we need ways to protect workers and consumers. And you also agree that our laws are imperfect. Its certain that there are still problems with the free market that our laws are not fully addressing and they should. Therefore, the free market still isn't completely fair to workers and consumers and we can still do some good things to make things better.

In the ideal world, companies compete for labor and customers and that drives up wages and drives down prices. But there is another side to this. People compete for jobs and customers compete for projects and greatly desire them. These factors drive up prices and drive down wages. The question is whether the balance of these forces better benefit workers and consumers or big corporations and executives. In the free market there is a supply and demand curve, higher demand drives up prices and lower supply also drives up prices. The free market can sometimes naturally rip off consumers and workers, and that is why we have the government protections we do. But like all government policies, they can be improves to cover more inadequacies.

One problem that isn't being addressed correctly is that employers are outsourcing labor overseas and cutting jobs here. With the world becoming more global, and with foreign labor being far cheaper, this trend will continue to increase, if left unchecked. And the scary thing is that a good percentage of jobs can be replaced with foreign labor thanks to technology, and there is no guarantee that better jobs will replace them. Sure, consumers will theoretically get cheaper products, but I haven't seen prices go down anyway, and are lower prices worth losing all our jobs? Meanwhile the big corporations and executives can rack in high profits and increase their fortunes. These increased fortunes can then be invested to earn even more without even working.

 

Although I disagree with your main thesis, which seems to be that 'the country owes me a good job just because I'm here'... I DO agree with you, strongly, that there are some critical manufacturing sectors that should definitely not (NOT) be sent off-shore! Among those are any having to do with the manufacture, assembly, and packaging of prescription medicines, and health-related products.

I began railing about this shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union, way back in the early 1990's, when it became 'safe' for Korporate Amerika to start sending more and more of their operations overseas. It has only come to light now during this Corona virus event just how stupid, and dangerous, the off-shoring of 85% - 90% of the making of our pharmaceutical medicine really has been!

And profits? My friends in Germany take the SAME medicines -- also made mostly in China and India -- that we do here in the States, but they pay only a small FRACTION what we do here, but the pharmaceutical companies in Europe seem to do just FINE!

 

So we both agree capitalism is the most "perfect" system and offers the most to the most people? Stop with the it must be perfect canard. Seeking perfection is folly. We will always have poor people because there are people in the world who do no have the initiative to rise above and content to live a bare minimum lifestyle, of course b******* all that time it is someone else's fault. And you do not solve the problem of some people being poor by making others poorer. The only equality would be we are all equally poor.

Yes is a free market capitalistic system companies compete for labor and labor competes for jobs and we all get to act in our own self interest. That's why I couldn't stand being in a union. Right now higher demand for labor is driving up the cost of that labor. That is why pro-growth free market policies are best for everyone. And yes our labor must compete with other labor but that is not just a cost factor and outsourcing menial jobs frees up labor here for higher paying jobs. With all the outsourcing that has occurred we have a GLUT of good paying jobs here. And just look at the price of big screen TV's the cost versus size and features continue to come down, same with computers. And yes corporations rack in profits are you are perfectly able to partake in those profits and build wealth. I did it all my life and now have a very nice nest egg on which to retire. And investing them is putting them to work.

What is it exactly that you would change that would make things better?

 

And I think you will see the free market forces start to change that on two fronts. First the trade agreements make our trade more equal. And now this disruption to the markets and how the balance had gotten too far to one side. Of course some will never come back but will be distributed better outside of China but some will be brought back here because the disruptions will prove to be more costly. From what I understand from what I have been listening to it's not that all the completed medicines are made in China, just some of the processing and base chemicals used to manufacture the pharmaceuticals.

 

The economy has greatly benefited the super rich and upper middle class
IT has done zero for the poor and lower middle class

Trump is doing a superb job and cannot fix everything. What else can he do.

 

We have a country full of whiners who want someone else to provide them a rose garden. That is a problem.

 

Is the economy unfair to most Americans?

Of course. It stays up at night thinking of ways it can make things worse.

 

Is the economy unfair to most Americans?
Here is one way to determine an answer. Is the economy working to allow each individual a viable opportunity to follow their personal dreams to fruition? Or, is it gradually suffocating us by raising prices while freezing or reducing wages for most? The statistics support the latter. So, the answer to your question is a resounding, YES.

 

Very interesting analysis! What you described with, "gradually suffocating us by raising prices while freezing or reducing wages for most" is almost a perfect description of what it was like to live under the years of "Stagflation" in the 1970's!

I don't know how we're ever going to get out from under it now. The Federal Reserve System is supposed to monitor inflation in this country and figure it in as a prime factor -- but it's amazing how often this lousy central bank overlooks so many things that cost Americans more and more, every year: house prices, rents and leases, monthly utility costs, vehicle prices, medical insurance premium prices, medical office visits, prescription medicine prices, and, a lot of individual grocery and hardware/lumberyard prices. Give me another ten minutes and I can probably come up with a dozen more....

Somehow, miraculously, our financial 'experts' in the Fed don't consider any of those things as being eligible for inclusion in their calculations of inflation in the United States... and yet those are the areas in which most Americans have to spend a lot of their disposable income -- month after month after month....

Oh, but maybe how the government justified providing no increases in Social Security cost-of-living payouts for 3 of the last 10 years! And after 2009, the cost-of-living increases were microscopic -- even though prices Americans had to pay for everything skyrocketed!

 

As I've mentioned a number of times before, I'm not an economist, so I claim neither a vast knowledge of, or interest in, the topic. But we're all influenced & impacted by it. I agree with your post. I too, have been aware of political maneuvers taken to slant the statistics into a more positive, but unreliable result. I know that happened during the GW Bush administration. They stopped counting many of the normal family expenses like you mention above, just so the statistics would show them as having a more positive affect on the economy--all for political gain. With this in mind, one could almost understand why so many Americans have gradually ceased to trust the government or its reports. But this is an easy fix. We just need honest government policy makers empowered to make the necessary changes, plus the political willingness to allow those changes to be made. I would support that action.