My changing views of religion

Hmmmmm.... it appears that I may be moving a bit closer to the center on a few things.

Please do not assume that I am converting to whatever religious belief system you subscribe to, I am most certainly not, nor do I see that happening in the future. My views on religion are still detached from the typical theistic model. I remember not too long ago I posted something along the lines of possibly playing guitar in a church, and I received quite a few "oh look, he is coming around" type replies. To their dismay, I managed to (*)(*)(*)(*) them all off because I continued to dismiss the same silly dogma that I usually do. So save yourself the heartache, this is anything but a "I am now a born again X" thread.

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Moving past the disclaimer and on to the point:

I yearn for something more exciting and beyond this particular life, beyond this particular space, and beyond this particular frame in time. I am not convinced that there is such a time or place, in fact, I have not seen evidence to suggest such thing.

I sometimes wonder if this space is simply contained within our own minds and if we may tap into this space with the proper mindset. The pursuit of understanding with a dash of spirituality.

It is hard for me to define my own spirituality, I lack the gnostic belief of a deity or a afterlife. I am very much agnostic to the idea, however I do come across as quite the atheist most of the time because most people use the notion of god to explain X without evidence. A minor pet peeve of mine. There is no need to fall back on "god did it" just because we cannot answer the question in this particular time. There is no reason to pit god against science, the two can be compatible. If there is a god, then we have the ability to discover it's creation with our tools. There is absolutely no reason to dismiss our observations because an ancient book disagrees. If modern observations contradict an ancient book, it is the book that is either being misinterpreted or outright false.

Science is a powerful tool, and it should not be underestimated. Science should not be viewed by the religious as a weapon against their faith, but a tool to discover what exactly X god has made for those believers. That goes for the Big Bang, Evolution, whatever. None of those scientific theories exclude "god", it is the dogmatic religious folk who exclude science from their beliefs. There is nothing wrong with the universe happening "by chance" (anthropic principle, if it occurred any other way we would not be here, the discussion on "fine tuning" is irrelevant), there is nothing wrong with sharing ancestry with a chimpanzee in Africa. In fact, the notion of everything living thing on the planet being interrelated is quite stunning and beautiful in my eyes. An existence where you are so intrinsically related to nature and everything in the universe should be embraced, and not looked down upon or dismissed. We are all interconnect, we share the same particles that existed long before anyone was alive today.

I hope for an afterlife, but I am doubtful. I do believe that there is a universal law of sorts pertaining to morals and ethics. I suppose view that universal law in the context of what an ideal deity would want for life in the universe. The Problem of Evil is my largest stumbling block in the acceptance of a theistic deity. Deistic seems much more likely. Pantheistic is something that I can easily accept.

If there is a deity, and if it is good, it is the embodiment of love, compassion, and tolerance. It is not an entity that wishes for people to war against people, it is not an entity that wishes people to deny other people basic civil rights for no other reason that a book written two thousand years ago, by desert nomads, says so.

If the worlds religions are inspired by a divine source, that message has almost certainly been corrupted by man. I see the possibility of multiple religions being divinely inspired as a possibility, however I believe the bits that condone things other than love, compassion, and tolerance as the product of man and their times. As time change, certain "values" and practices fall out of favor.

Most religious people are sane, kind, and compassionate people. Contrary to what the schizophrenic may suggest, I have made no arguments otherwise. Any arguments I make against religion are either directed towards doctrine or towards particular people with particular beliefs.

What I do have an issue with are the religious people who use their religion as a crutch, as a justification, for their bigotries. I have seen it in my personal life, and I have certainly seen it on this forum.
The age old "Well, I don't think group X should be allowed to do Y because the Bible says it is a sin". Sorry, that is intellectual laziness to fall back on such a silly position. I remember many of the supposed Christians said that I should barred from playing or entering a church because of my comments against violence and bigotry found in religion. People like that simply turn me away. So intolerant and dogmatic with their beliefs. There are too many intellectually lazy people on the internet, and too many intellectually lazy people in real life.

I have been seeing a woman for a little while who is a devout Christian, however very reasonable in her beliefs. She has told me what brought he to her beliefs, and quite honestly, it is a good reason. Very good reason indeed. The silly notions of (*)(*)(*)(*)ation, hell, fear, and the earth existing for a mere six thousand years are absent from her mind. In her eyes god is love, god loves those and watches out for those are inherently good. Despite their beliefs. Sounds a lot like my way of thinking in terms of what I believe good attributes for any entity to retain.

Fear is not a reason to believe, those who use fear for converts are simply vile.

Our difference in beliefs is a bit of a road bump though, which has been difficult and simply heart breaking. In her eyes I am "an evidence of god", which is a rather difficult thing for me to accept, and despite that, the fundamental difference in beliefs is an issue. Despite the fact our morals and values are manifested in essentially the same way. We are both pretty much prudes. Oh well.

Anyway, that is my changing view on religion. I am bit more tolerant, however I still get a bit testy of fallicious claims. Ha.

Hopefully that was at least a little organized.

 

Oh, you're definitely converting

 

To Maynardism. lol

 

Welcome aboard brother Wolverine!!

 

Life is a process. For what it's worth, I like the direction your going.

 

To be found.

 

Read this if you get the chance:



A non-believer's guide to the uses of religion.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-21/atheist-alain-de-botton-points-out-religions/3843406

Philosopher and author Alain de Botton is an atheist but his latest book describes the lessons everyone can gain from religion.

 

This is why religion is a fail of an idea.

I yearn for a bank account with $1b in it, but no one will sell me anything beyond what my bank account actually says.

 

You need a hobby Wolverine..
sometimes thinking to much about what is and what could of been and life in general ain't a good thing..

 

Respect Wolverine! It takes courage to change ones views and it takes even more courage to openly admit so in a very personal post on a public forum, where you risk having your feelings trampled on by all kinds of idiots.
I hope you won’t perceive me as one of those idiots, when I just comment on two things. I don't mean to be condescending or anything, but maybe you'll find my comments helpful:

It is a huge problem for everybody I can think of. Many possible answers have been given, none of them is altogether satisfying, not even the ones about free will.

One of the best answers I’ve ever come across though is the one Dorothee Sölle gave. She is a Protestant (if rather unorthodox) theologian, so you might not be able to embrace her religious imagery. But what’s so good about her answer are its practical implications that should be recommendable not only for Christians/religious people but also for atheists/secular humanists:

In short Sölle does not believe in an all-powerful God so much as in a suffering God. God suffers with us, but he does not stop the suffering, because “God has no hands except from our hands”.
We ourselves are to bring about the “Kingdom of God” in this world, i.e., we are to fight evil wherever we meet it, to help those who are in need, to liberate us from oppressive systems, to strive for peace and social justice.

She does indeed sound like a very sensible nice girl.

Don’t worry. I live in a similar constellation (with me being the religious believer in the relationship while my husband is the agnostic). Of course I don’t know how things are between the two of you, but in my experience differing faith isn’t really a problem as long as the rest is harmonious.
All you have to do is respect each others religious views, exchange them while not expecting the other to ‘convert’ to yours. And of course you must not lose your sense of humour: the bloody heathen has just called me his little bible-basher! I shall force him to make me a coffee NOW!

 

Hold on there brother, I have a particular problem with Wolfie's change of heart, in that I do not think it is genuine at all.

What sets Christians apart is that we have these things called standards. Wolf's sudden tenderness and compassion are being displayed for no one but this young woman, and he continues to lash out at Christians in general and scoff at their religion - except in this ONE case.

There are MANY, MANY young men that will do and say anything to get a shot at a nice piece of tale, and who does Wolf think he is actually fooling here?

Let me remind my assembled brothers about the conversion of Paul. Paul, like Wolf was a continuous persecuter of Christians who was converted. His conversion, and its genuine nature, are revealed and tell us a lot about what this process looks like.

It does not look like a woman walking by and batting her eyes. Indeed, the Bible is quite specific in warning about the sexual escapades and teh compromising tendancies we make as humans to pursue what we desire: sex. And in this case, my suspicions are raised that Wolf is doing nothing that the equivalent of whispering sweet nothings into a woman's ear to get what he wants - and what he wants is not Christ - its tail. How many of us have seen men and women manipulate people for sex? How many of us have seen the after effects of manipulative people who, upon getting what they want, then lash out.

I fear that this young woman, if she takes Wolf seriously - who continues to claim that ALL other Christians are fear based and vile - and succumbs to his manipulation will get teh ugly side of his nature when, upon getting what he wants he will lash out. And that faith, so earnestly shared with him will become a weapon - as I have seen him do on multiple occassions to people right here on this forum.

Indeed, what makes Paul's conversion so clear is what is lacking entirely in Wolf's story above - repentence, apology, or any desire to atone for his past behavior. Any acknowledgement that his treatment of Christians was wrong, and indeed, the continued metting out of similar treatment. His entire ... consideration, appears wrapped aruond one girl, and, quite frankly I smell a rat.

We all wish that the gospel and Jesus and his healing benefits to come to others, and certainly Wolf's sudden transformation may be enlightening for him. But the fact remains, as he appears to admit, that this entire process is focused around one young woman. That is not Christ gentlemen, and I for one think this young woman should proceed quite carefully with Wolf. he is not the tender hearted atheist with an open mind, he is Saul.

when he admits that his condemnation of so many other people as fear mongering morons is misplaced, I will be more inclined to see his story as something other than rationalizing a desire for sex. I see young men do this every day, and thanks to the uniform code of military justice - I get to deal with the consequences of this kind of behavior every day.

Where wolf is concerned, my advice is to proceed with extreme caution. When he does not get what he wants, he has no problem whatsoever resorting to spiritual abuse to inflict pain in others. I hope this young lady has her guard up, because the journey with Wolf will be a difficult one.

 

Oh it's genuine. It's genuine because based on what he's said, this lady isn't really a Christian (if a Christian is defined by adhering to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible). So he's not respecting Christianity but rather a bastardized version of it formulated in this lady's mind.

 

Back off, neutral, and don't let yourself be led by what you perceive as personal insults.
There's no need to question somebodies character only because he happens to disagree with you, even when the topics he disagrees with you on are religious ones.

A lot of Christians are really just plain (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)s and they deserve all criticism they get. As Nick Cave has once put it: "the name of God has been hijacked by a gang of psychopaths and bullies and homophobes, and the name of God has been used for their own twisted agendas."
Seeing that this gang gets far more publicity than the rest of us who aren't bigots, it's no wonder Christianity as a whole gets blamed sometimes.
And I think it's great that Wolverine can differentiate even though he may sometimes take out the big brush rather than the small one.

 

I am not.

I have seen how Wolf treats people, how he continues to treat people, and have watched him routinely use faith as an injurous weapon to inflict pain and suffering in others.

When someone has called multiple posters rapists and genoical maniacs (not just me brother) and yet now sings sweetly when a SINGLE woman walks by?

Let me remind you again, I see men do this to women EVERY SINGLE damb day, and the fact that someone whispers the name of my savior does not mean that their motives have suddenly been purified.

Change happens in the heart - not on the lips.

And having been a previous atheist, let me again say I have some basis to doubt the veracity of Wolf's claims - particularly as just yesterday he was all to ready to agree with Freedom that our faith does indeed preach racism, sexism, slavery, and is fear based. The same faith this young woman shares.

My faith is precious. Its not something I will willfully allow others to manipulate me or others with - and neither should you.

Whispering the name Jesus does not free us from our sins. Atonement, repentence, humbleness, and a genuine desire for change DOES! I see exactly none of that in Wolf.

We forgive those when they ask of it - not because they whisper sweet nothing about our savior even as they continue to offer up one gut punch after another.

Beware.

 

I've noticed he's lightened up a bit in general and isn't trolling for a scuffle. But you're mad at me so you'll just lash out at the Catholic Church and then call me an atheist.

 

No, I tell you are behaving like an atheist when when you are condeming my soul to hell for disagreeing with you. I wil remind you, as I have many times, I agree with 99% of the Catholic Church. But that last 1% is stuff a LOT of people disagree with the church on and that the church seems most committed to falling on its sword over. Seriously, as much as I like teh Catholic Church, their ability to change with the times or acknowledge fault is almost legendary stubborness.

I wish I could agree with you on Wolf, but like I said, its hard to consider him lightened up when he is still quick to call any Christian who disagrees with him a sexist, a racist, vile and disgusting. That is hardly the stuff of a more moderate approach to religion.

I fear, being around young men as i am required to be, he's simply rationalizing his affection for a young woman. He can be quite friendly when you agree with him, but if you think you or I are angry over our debate? Try disagreeing with Wolf. As I said, I have watched him on many occassions deliberately twist someone's faith for no other reason that to injure them, and in this case? I simply think he's twisting a young woman's faith to manipulate her.

Perhaps that is harsh, but, and I believe I am not alone on this, I am not the first and only man to see a man manipulate a woman .... the proverbial say anything. And while he is still hurling gut punches left and right?

 

I never did that, and it's pretty lame you keep suggesting I did. He3re's what I said, ...

Stop being such a drama queen.

You're kind of a magnet for it because you over-react so ridiculously. Anyone wanting to whip you into a froth seems to be able to with a few simple words. Here...I'll show you...


Is your wife afraid of your reactionary temper? Does she have to walk on egg shells not to disquiet you?

See? That will likely elicit some response from you--IGNORE IT. No one can see you behind your computer. You can fume and bluster all you want...and then come in and type reasonable responses...that is, if you want to.

What do you accomplish with this sort of attitude? If you're right--no one will EVER know, and if you're wrong, you may be alienating a person budding in faith. What good is that?

 

BTW: That stolid faith is what's awesome about the Church. It's not ruled by popular vote! Society and moral trends sway all over the place blown about by the social mores du jour. God is immutable--what was contrary to God in the beginning is still so; what was not in accord with god's Divine perfection is not going to become "good" simply because it pisses a bunch of people off and they don't like it.

1Cor.16

[13] Be watchful, stand firm in your faith, be courageous, be strong.

It's stubbornness for what is right according to God's logic, not mankind's--and the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit in such matters as promised by Jesus before he ascended (attested to Biblically).

 

Fel, so, perhaps I should respond like an atheist to this, the latest barb that extends because I disgree with you?

So, I should form a band of roving harrassers that deliberately target you and twist everything into a reportable insult so the mods can constantly have to interevne? Maybe I should call you a rapist and genocidal maniac, accuse you have deep seated emotional issues that require mental health treatment. Maybe I should use you Catholicism as a weapon, accuse you of supporting pedophilia? That would be responding to you the way atheists respond to, "Heh slick, that is not what we believe."

Because that is how guys like Burz and Wolf behave when you confront them.

Or is it your contention that a poster 'asks' for it when Burz drags a month old arguement into different thread to start something personal? Clearly my fault correct? And noticing that - why that makes me absolutely hysterical!

I mean Wolf can run around accusing people of racism, sexism, and slavery, but all he need to get a free pass from you is to say, "Well, gosh I am thinking that a nice young girls isn't perhaps a rapist after all!!! Tee Hee!!"

In other words, when these posters behave exactly as I do or worse, you have nothing to say. Yet, when I dare to disagree with you - suddenly I have bhevaioral issues?

Fel, I am going to say this quite clearly. I am allowed to disagree with you.

And if disagreeing with suddenly leads to this realization that of flawed humanity, then sister - you are acting just like an atheist. Just like an atheist, all a person apparently has to do be the target of criticism is dare to disagree.

Well, enjoy the atheists - they will happily use you as weapon against me, Inc, fish, Rev, RPA, or pretty much anyone that doesn't just roll over for them and acknowledge that their faith makes them inferior to mighty atheists.

Apparently Fel, you hold grudges. But I in no way shape or form appreciate the personal pot shots that follow from having the termidity to disagree with you. I really appreciate the unsolicited personal advice that follows having dared to disagree with you. Advice that looks pretty much like an isult.

Thank you for crossing a line.

 

Well, thanks for thinking I am unaware of how the church operates and offering abolsutely abolsutely nothing about leadership, management, or ethical standards. Its an excuse for authoritarism and elitism. That's it.

I think its safe to say that you and I done.

You clearly cannot handle people disagreeing with you, but heh, now my wife is free game.

Welcome to ignore kid. For the record, you are quite literally the first Christian to earn that honor. All because someone dared to disagree with you about IVF. Athtarded isn't it?

 

there is nothing neutral about a christian or felicity

the divide is huge, with the selfish bias

You two people are so opposing to your titles/names on this forum

 

No. You should respond like an adult.

 

Do you really have this little personal insight? It's quite amazing!

 

Called it.

 

He actually said something!