My changing views of religion

That is simply a cop out. If you are unable to describe something with human terms and human logic, then the concept if pointless. If an idea exists outside of logic and reason, it is non-sense and not worth discussing.

 

Same here, the curriculum I was schooled on was a southern Baptist young earth creationism. Major meh points.

What it is, is exactly as described in the OP.

Downloading....

Listening to this at the moment, however I a little less than convinced.
http://youtu.be/EPqSrnR6VtI

 

A great intelligent guy to listen to is Ravi Zacharias. He's not Catholic--but even as a Catholic myself, I think he's SUPER. I actually find him more interesting than Father Groschell because he presents his arguments in a lecture format and it's more intellectual than conversational and that appeals to me more.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9b0PJDDof4"]Ravi Zacharias - Addressing the Problem of Evil - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7mhQ8fEq0&feature=related"]How Can a Good God Allow Evil? Does Life Have Meaning? - Dr. Ravi Zacharias - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnR3WPjfLzI&feature=related"]How Can A Benevolent God Allow Suffering? - YouTube[/ame]

 

That was actually the first video listed in my YouTube search "the problem of evil".

 

He's good. The third one, Benevolent God & Suffering, I just listened to. He's riveting, IMO.

 

Though I have never really agreed with Daniel Craig, I do enjoy listening to him.

He is a very good public speaker and very good at making concise points through metaphor. Though I may not agree with him, I do believe he is on the same level as Sam Harris in terms of debate skills.

 

Listening right now.

 

Seems Craig is arguing that the logic (on either side) is just not necessarily either side's conclusion--and then points to probability. I mean that he seems to negate the points that both sides are making rather than offering an actual answer.

Zacharias' position seems to be that when one posits that there is "evil" in the world, then the assumption is already made that there is the reality of evil and which the necessarily admits the reality of good --and that has meaning--that pain provides "help".

 

I believe Craig makes the same point later on, there are five parts to that particular lecture.

 

Here's the poem Zacharias references in the third video I linked to:


He Giveth More Grace

He giveth more grace when the burdens grow greater,
He sendeth more strength when the labors increase;
To added affliction He addeth His mercy;
To multiplied trials, His multiplied peace.

When we have exhausted our store of endurance,
When our strength has failed ere the day is half done,
When we reach the end of our hoarded resources,
Our Father's full giving is only begun.

Fear not that thy need shall exceed His provision,
Our God ever yearns His resources to share;
Lean hard on the arm everlasting, availing;
The Father both thee and thy load will upbear.

His love has no limit; His grace has no measure.
His pow'r has no boundary known unto men;
For out of His infinite riches in Jesus,
He giveth, and giveth, and giveth again!

Annie Johnson Flint

 

gotta make dinner--perhaps I listen to more after...

Started part two, and oh yeah...he does link it to suffering providing an occasion for a experiencing a response to God so that we can come to know His nature better....

I will continue with that series--it seems interesting.

 

Oh, and yet you do this all the time. I mean the idea that people who are not racists, sexists, and genocidal maniacs, are still clearly depicted by you as ... all of those.

Furthermore, you CONTINUE to apply those standards to Christians on this forum, while making a switch to NOT apply then to this Christian lass of your.

But heh, you want to know the mind of God, with the Problem of Evil, which has been thoroughly trashed for centuries, but when we point to free agency as spelled out in our doctrine ... well, no point dealing with things that are written out for you.

Your new found 'moderation' continues to apply to one woman alone, and everyone who disagrees with your interpretation, that apparently being the sole qualifyer, is a raping, genocidal maniac - because that is what our doctrine says - no way possible it is just you deliberately misinterpreting it ... none whatsoever

Which of course, for teh girly, doesn't apply at all ...

 

.... which is an argument that I have issue with.

He cites chaos theory, a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane. Which he links to suffering in X part of the world leading to a series of actions that betters someone life in another part of the world. Suffering on the microscopic scale and benefit on the macroscopic scale. Essentially justifying suffering for the betterment of people else where.

The issue in this though, is that there is not a logical end. Any sort of suffering could then be justified for an end.... even if that end is not demonstrable. I would like him to cite a link between 26,000 people starving to death today, and a positive benefit elsewhere in the world. Without a demonstrable outcome, I do not see how his argument holds any water. He is essentially saying that suffering might cause a benefit elsewhere, but offers no way of actually demonstrating that series of events.

 

15-month-old baby dropped in field by tornado buried in Indiana

Any 'god' that would toy with the life of a 15 month old baby, is a sick son of a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*) who does not deserve my respect (or anyone else for that matter).

This is of course that you are under the delusion that this 'god' exists to begin with.

 

Not having listened to the whole thing, I can only comment on what I think concerning what you have written here. I think that in looking for a direct "link" from suffering "A" to positive benefit "B" is missing the point. First, let me give you an example from my own life.

Point of suffering "A" = 9/11/01 terrorist attack
Point of positive benefit "B" = millions (myself included) find compassion for fellow mankind and a reinvigorated faith

That does not negate the tragedy, but it does bring a good out of a bad. There is OPPORTUNITY to exercise our free will toward the objective good when presented with challenges. If there were no challenges, we would have no opportunities.

I think you're looking for a 1:1 ratio of evil : positive benefit, and it doesn't work that way because mankind is an organism in time.

It's like standing with your nose to a Seurat painting and thinking that's the the whole picture.


A person has to step back from that tiny dot of time to see the grand view:

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl-4CzsjnEQ"]Howling Dog - YouTube[/ame]

 

No matter what your views are, or how they have (and will) evolve, I want to praise you for doing your own thinking, your own searching.

I wish you good luck. I believe there is only ONE God, HE/She/It doesn't look like any of the images proposed (or imposed in some cases) by organized religion. But, although I believe there is only ONE God, I also strongly believe there are many ways to find HIM/Her/IT. For me, it hasn't been through "looking out," but through "looking in."

I hope you find a way.

 

Got it, you have no problems with a 'god' toying with a 15 month old baby.

 

True, however there are less destructive ways to bring about fellowship, and a deity capable of creating all time and space should not be concerned with its following on a single lonely planet.

 

Looking in has actually been an interest of mine.

Inner space probably provides more answers about what I believe or what I am looking for rather than looking out on artificial constructs of religion.

 

And who causes that destruction? Did God come down and start WWII? Did God come down and cause rape?

And yet you trust those who commit these things?

Makes perfect sense.

As much sense as treating everyone that way except chicky.

And Fel thought you had changed ....

 

Call it whatever you want I call it being presumptuous to believe that if it cannot be discussed it via human terms it is non-sense. What man does is beyond what an animal can ever accomplished with their brain, nor can they understand it. Even so, the things of God are way beyond what the human mind can understand nor can we know them without divine revelation.

 

You realize saying that also misses the point of humility in the face of the unknown. I'm not chastising here, I'm stating the logic of it. If as creatures in this system bound by time with a view of only a tiny dot in the grand scheme--how is it logical to presume that the one with the tiny view would be able to say how it "should" be done? Part of coming to know God is coming to know our own paradoxical insignificance and extreme importance is found in grappling with this idea. It is a humility that is necessary to come to perceive the depth of God's love and appreciate it.

We don't even know all of what beings live at the bottom of our oceans in the time we live right now--we are relatively IGNORANT concerning the REALITY of the history of the earth--it's pure hubris to presume to know better than a supposed deity of omniscience.

Concerning this position, God had some words for Job, who, though never denying God and renouncing Him, still complained a lot about suffering.

Job 38 and on (however, to get the context, all of Job is an important comment on the question of suffering and evil)

 

No--I think life is a journey of discovery and unveiling.

 

True, however as humans we are the only logical beings that we are aware of. We simply cannot just write off whatever evil and suffering may exist because there may be a higher entity with a higher understanding pulling the strings of the cosmos. To allow 3,000 people to die in the towers, and who know how many tens of thousands more in the resulting retaliation is not the best or most effective way to bring about fellowship. Nor the best way to renew faith. There are many people of many religions who could say the exact same thing, however would a single god be strengthening the faith of the many faiths or just one? It doesn't make sense.