Nordic model... Socialism?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Mike12, Nov 6, 2019.

  1. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    not quite. The system is based on largely free markets where government doesn't interfere in private sector that much and in doing so, is able to sustain a vibrant economic system that can sustain generous entitlements and safety net. I'm not against nordic model but the people largely make it work, US population is not anything like the population in Nordic Countries. Also, i'm perfectly ok with more of a safety net, free education, national defense, free healthcare provided there is choice and government stays away from trying to dictate what private sector does. That's, in a nutshell, the Nordic model which is not really what Bernie makes it sound like it is. Truth is, today's socialists do not want to implement the Nordic model, what they want to do is borrow some elements from the Nordic model - entitlements/safety net but also have government control and interfere in the private sector to a degree far exceeding what we see in Nordic model.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffre...dic-countries-are-not-socialist/#2fce4e0b74ad

    key highlights:

    1. It is certainly true that Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Denmark are notable economic successes. What is false is that these countries are particularly socialist.
    2. To the extent that the left wants to point to an example of successful socialism, not just generous welfare states, the Nordic countries are actually a poor case to cite
    3. Regardless of the perception, in reality the Nordic countries practice mostly free market economics paired with high taxes exchanged for generous government entitlement programs
    4. First, it is worth noting that the Nordic counties were economic successes before they built their welfare states. Those productive economies, generating good incomes for their workers, allowed the governments to raise the tax revenue needed to pay for the social benefits. It was not the government benefits that created wealth, but wealth that allowed the luxury of such generous government programs.
    5. Second, as evidence of the lack of government interference in business affairs, there is the fact that none of these countries have minimum wage laws
    6. A third example of Nordic commitment to free markets can be found in Sweden which has complete school choice. The government provides families with vouchers for each child. These vouchers can be used to attend regular public schools, government-run charter schools, or private, for-profit schools. Clearly, the use of government funds to pay for private, for-profit schools is the opposite of socialism
    7. The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver-based, pro-free market, think tank, compiles a worldwide ranking of countries called the economic freedom index. Its website explains that its ranking “is an effort to identify how closely the institutions and policies of a country correspond with a limited government ideal..... What we find, however, is the Nordic countries rank quite high on this index of economic freedom.
    8. Socialism can take the form of government controlling or interfering with free markets, nationalizing industries, and subsidizing favored ones (green energy, anyone?). The Nordic countries don’t actually do much of those things.
    9. However, it is possible to do these things without interfering in the private sector more than required. It is allowing businesses to be productive that produces the high corporate and personal incomes that support the tax collections making the government benefits feasible. The Nordic countries are smart enough not to kill the goose that lays the golden egg
    10. In fact, the only reason most such countries can afford those benefits is that their market economies are so productive they can cover the expense of the government’s generosity. Perhaps a better name for what the Nordic countries practice would be compassionate capitalism.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  2. God & Country

    God & Country Well-Known Member

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    Scandinavians pay some of the highest taxes in the world. Given the current tax structure in the US there just isn't the kind of revenue for what the Scandinavians do. Also they have a negligible amount of people who don't contribute where here the total cost of poverty assistance programs can add up to a shocking $1 trillion a year when combining both federal and state level program budgets. The taxpayers would never agree to paying what it would take to create a system similar to the nordic model here. It's interesting to note that the Swedes have soured on the Social Democrats who were running the country and one of the biggest problem Sweden now faces is the importation of poverty and it's attendant problems via immigration. I'm more in favor of lower taxes and for the government to stop spending us into oblivion. We really don't need to look at what other countries are doing to fix our problems we just have to be better at fixing them.
     
  3. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    agreed, obviously taxes will need to go way up. Not an easy sell.
    agreed, why i argue that is is a fantasy to think we can implement Nordic model in US and see same results. Like i point out, the people make a system work, the system doesn't make the people. Just because this model works in Scandinavia, doesn't mean it will work in US. If we take it to an extreme and try to implement it in Venezuela, even worse.
    yep and why i point out that changing demographics are the biggest threat to sustainability of Nordic model, as they import more and more poverty, via immigration, the model will eventually collapse. Like i said, this is basic stuff, you need the right people to make this system work. You cannot have a large portion of the population who simply doesn't contribute, produce.. the model breaks down fast when these inputs are provided.

    I do think that Americans have no clue about what Bernie and the socialist democrats mean when they talk about Nordic model. It's is a complete lie that Bernie wants Nordic model in US, he wants socialism, different thing. He wants the government controlling every aspect of private sector, he wants to limit choice, this is not what Nordic model is about. The nordic model is largely free market capitalism, with productive citizens contributing to provide safety net and entitlements. The model allows the private sector to thrive and government doesn't stick it's nose to the degree democrats want it to in this Country. There are stark differences between what socialist democrats want and what the Nordic model actually consists of.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  4. stratego

    stratego Active Member

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    A few years ago the Democrats want Universal healthcare and also claim that it's not socialism. No Democrats, you're wrong. Universal Healthcare is socialism, not exception. Socialism will lead to a collapsed economy like Venezuela.

    Now Democrats still want Universal Healthcare and don't try to hide their Socialist tendencies. They point to Nordic model claiming that Socialism work. No Democrats, you're wrong. Just because Nordic countries have Universal Healthcare doesn't mean it's Socialism. When you look at those countries they're capitalists through and through.
     
  5. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    People are desperately trying to gaslight the US on socialism. The only thing we can do is keep telling people what it really is.
     
  6. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yep. I own a Husqvarna leaf blower ,,, a wonderful piece of equipment that no government bureaucracy could create. An advantage that the Nordic states had was that they were ethnically homogeneous. For instance, most Swedes could track their roots and their work ethic to Swedish ancestors 12 generations back. Clearly, the strong welfare system works because Swedes and Scandinavians in general share a work ethic that flies in the face of abuse.

    With the migrant crisis things are changing. Here's what I found:

    The Swedish Lesson: Welfare States Create Moral Hazard
    By Nima Sanandaji

    May 17, 2019 6:30 AM

    Having watched people game the welfare state, Nordic countries have scaled it back in favor of free markets.

    At a time when the American Left wants to introduce Swedish-style socialism into the U.S., we should remember that generous welfare states pose a moral hazard. Their well-intentioned policies undermine individual responsibility and create a welfare-dependency trap. This is confirmed by history as well as by current developments in Sweden, where cheaters are targeting the country’s welfare system.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/nordic-countries-scale-back-welfare-states/

    Diversity has created friction in the EU with Southern Europeans enjoying the good life at the expense of more industrious cultures.
     
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  7. Lesh

    Lesh Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting argument

    Conservatives keep telling us that "socialism is bad"....but they have a problem

    Real life examples kind of hit them in the face. The "Nordic Model" is there for all to see and it's not the disaster that conservatives claim socialism should be...

    So what to do? Change the definition and declare those countries NOT to be socialist!

    There! All better...

    Except...what's being proposed HERE...is LESS socialist than the Nordic Model

    Oh....
     
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  8. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    The Nordic countries are small and not that socialist. There is no comparison to the US.
     
  9. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    The VA is socialist medicin… single payer private delivery is not socialism.
     
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  10. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    The most serious problem we have in the US is ignorance.
     
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  11. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Of course but how do we educate people who believe socialism is a good thing? How many Stalin, Mao and Pol Pots does socialism need to produce to break thru the ignorance?
     
  12. Lesh

    Lesh Well-Known Member

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    No comparison?

    You're correct in that what's being proposed here is far LESS socialist than what they have in those countries
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  13. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    Liberals in the US have never called for a state like Cuba or Venezuela. That is just the usual made up silliness that conservatives like to throw around. It is one of those things, can't best them so lie about them. In fact I'll go as far as to say that 90% of what conservatives say about liberals isn't exactly true.

    Of the top performing states, as to economics, nine out of ten are blue states where of poorest performing states, nine out of ten are red. Obviously liberals are on to something that conservatives aren't.

    All along liberals have been calling for a Nordic like society. In fact Washington and Oregon, both of whom have rather large Nordic populations, are Nordic leaning in their operations.

    So save us your BS about liberals. Adam Smith was a liberal, conservatives of the day said horrible things about him.

    Not to blow a hole in your theory, or anything, but Norway owns something like 45% of the stock of Norwegian companies. I think that is a good way to handle taxes and regulation. Don't tax companies, just give a few shares to the government and let them profit according to the fros and throes of the economy. Less regulation is needed as the state, through the stock holder process, can guide companies in ways most beneficial to society.

    Of course conservatives are going to say that we can't do the Nordic model, because... pick your excuse. It is the nature of conservative thought, conservative brains. Introduce a new idea into a room full of random people then watch the response. The strong conservatives will give you a hundred and one reasons why the idea won't work, while the strong liberals will start working it out, discovering its uses.

    By the way the Nordic culture is part of the wider Northern European culture which includes Belgium, the Netherlands, England, Germany, and France. The US isn't a whole lot different. It is American conservatism that is at odds with our people. As it has always been liberalism that made us better than the rest of the world.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  14. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    You could begin with a dictionary.
     
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  15. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    I’m not big on the classic model of Socialism, but it would be good to understand that if it happens in this country, it would be an American form of Socialism. Not the Venezuelan form of Socialism or the Nordic form - it would take the form of American social systems. A hybrid.

    One should keep in mind that Norway and Sweden have a GDP to debt ratio of about 40%, while the US has a GDP to debt ratio of over 100%. This is an indication that the Nordic model may outlive the US model. Just say’n.
     
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  16. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    Nordic socialism did work fairly well, but it is breaking down. In racially and religiously homogeneous societies there is strong social cohesion and people are willing to help each other. In diverse countries social cohesion drops and people are less willing to help "the other."

    Swedes complain that resources are going to the immigrants instead of the native born, are appalled by the violence in immigrant communities and worry that Swedish culture is being erased.

    This has led to the rapid gain in support for the SD party
     
  17. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    I would rather begin with a history book. The proof is in the pudding!

    But if I did begin with a dictionary where would I start? Perhaps the word "genocide" or "re-education camp" or "gulag"?
     
  18. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member Donor

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    Good discussion. Is there any nation comparable to America? We are separated from Europe and Asia by two great oceans. Immigrants to America become Americans. We are experts in successfully absorbing other nationalities, cultures, products, and even languages. Other nations fail at this, sometimes spectacularly. So our economic system is enormous and enormously complicated.

    As one trained in economics, I have a hard time characterizing and labeling the American Economy. A professor of mine once characterized our economy as a "welfare state." That doesn't quite do it for me, too many negative connotations and it doesn't seem to fit. We claim to be a Democratic Republic although the Electoral College dents that. (continued)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  19. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    LOLOL We have neither genocide nor gulag in the US. ..nor re-education camps.
     
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  20. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member Donor

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    America has elements of socialism through the construct of a social net (social security, medicare, medicaid, FDIC, unemployment insurance veterans benefits, etc.). One thing we clearly not is a laissez faire capitalist state. Liberal democracy seems too broad. Perhaps The American Economy best describes us. I think we are that unique.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  21. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    That is because we are not socialist.
     
  22. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    No, it’s you leftists that lie to us, telling us nordic model is socialism. Since you can’t point to many examples of where true socialism works, you all have to falsely claim nordic model is. Nordic model is largely free market capitalism that is able to sustain generous entitlements, funded by largely productive citizens. The government largely leaves private sector alone and lets it thrive. Free market capitalism allowed Scandinavia to prosper, socialism didn’t. It’s due to free market capitalism and highly productive, largely homogenous citizens that nordic model was able to create a system of generous entitlements and a safety net.

    cuba, venezuela is true socialism.

    not only do you leftists lie about nordic model being socialism, you lie about wanting to implement it in US when what you want to implement is very different to what nordic model actually consists of. I just laid out the stark differences between nordic model and what our leftwingers want to put in place, all leftwing lies exposed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  23. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    None of the “isms” have existed anywhere in the real world except as black board exercises. The US is no more pure Capitalism than Venezuela is pure Socialism. They are all hybrids.

    IF a broader form of Socialism is adopted here, it would be an Americanized version. Probably closer to the hybrid Swiss model than anything else.
     
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  24. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    First of all, it is important to note that the "Swedish model" is in deep decline with dropping school results, increasing criminality, longer and longer waiting times at the hospitals and a lack of workers in all of the jobs within the public sector. Furthermore, Sweden is doing bad on trade and the Crown is in decline.

    This is what always happens when you implement a planned economy.No matter how radical or laxed it is.

    Anyways, Sweden is not - and has never been - "Socialist". Sweden used to be one of the poorest nations in Europe, but at the end of the 1800's they passed some free market policies that quickly increased producitivity and wealth. Sweden also managed to stay out of both World Wars which benefited their economy immensely.

    At the end of the 1970's, the Social Democrats had almost driven the nation into bankrupcy. The following government implemented a few tax reforms, but the Swedish economy remained stagnant up until the 1990's and onwards.

    It is, however, important to remember that Sweden still have many taxes that are lower than USA's.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  25. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    Have you been listening ti Mark Levin too much? Those on the left haven't been selling the Nordic model as a socialist model, but rather an example of where things work, when conservatives say they can't. What you are saying about Sweden is what I have been saying all along, after all, I had grandparents who where born there.

    Anyhow, the rest is just deluded right wing ideology. It is almost as if you are saying, the liberals were right all along, but there is that nagging emotion that just won't go away.
     

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