Nordic model... Socialism?

Even the New York Times admits that the nordic model is in full fail mode. "Diversity" is murdering it in the cradle. Over half of their welfare cases are Muslim immigrants from the past two decades and growing every year. The Nordic model works when you have homogeneous hardworking and intelligent population..... not so much when you import millions of people from a different culture to live off the work of Swedish people, commit violent crime and elevate a religion hostile to Nordic values.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/business/sweden-economy-immigration.html

 

By 1800, Sweden, like all European countries had become burdened by their king and church. At the end of the American Civil War, the US opened its gates wide to Scandinavians and Germans. They then closed those gates at the onset of WWI. During that time, half of Swedes left Sweden and moved to America. Even today, there are more Swedes in the US than in Sweden. It was so much that it hurt Sweden badly. In an effort to restore the country, a series of laws were passed that brought forth the social reforms that Sweden is so well known for. The idea being, how to make a country that works so well for the average man, that no one would want to move away. This happened in the late 1800s early 1900s. A lot of it had to do with labor reforms and child welfare.

By population it is the 91st largest country, yet is one of the top industrial countries. Obviously they are doing something right.

 

are you serious? Bernie sanders calls himself a socialist and points to nordic model as proof that socialism works. Where have you been living? In a cave?

plus many of the things bernie wants is very different to what actually exists in nordic model, look at the list i provide in OP. Many of those things Bernie wants, nordic model rejects.

 

I am not an expert in economy -- I do not know if they are Socialist.

The most important issue is Positive Rights. Everyone must have a right to

-- Food
-- Housing
-- Medical Care

of reasonable quality. In USA, people who can not provide for themselves do not have such rights.

 

And now we're being told that the Nordic Model is somehow a failure since the original argument clearly had holes in it.

What a crock

 

What has government provided safety net got to do with immigration?

 

This is pretty basic and even the left knows it. To suppress these truths they just blame everyone of being racists and white supremacists.

The fact is that a society that is educated, respects laws, works hard can make nordic model work. The system is based on being very organized, where public sector works closely with private sector to ensure workers and employers negotiate good deals and there is efficiency and effectiveness, largely due to the citizens. Throw in immigrants who are poor, less educated and don't know how to contribute and the system starts breaking down. When people talk about closing borders and preserving traditions, there is nothing racist about it, all they want to do is maintain civility and keep things running well.

This system works but it's a very organized system run by a highly educated, productive population. As that population changes, the system will ultimately fail. Hey, what happened to Roman Empire by the way? Didn't it ultimately succumb to diversity? yes it did.

 

Making a society well educated requires a well funded public education system which includes college. These countries are facing issues do to the refugee crisis, but this could correct itself in a generation or two. Scapegoating immigrants certainly won’t help anything.

And no, Rome didn’t collapse from immigrants or “diversity.” In fact, that was one of the things that built the empire. There were a lot of reasons for the collapse, but devaluation of its currency, corruption, and size are major reasons. But I see this argument a lot with the anti-immigration crowd, it’s just total nonsense.

 

Immigration is not the issue, it's the type of immigrants. I find it so disingenuous when people like you attempt to argue that an educated, productive immigrant is the same as an uneducated, unproductive immigrant. The Unites States is a nation of immigrants but the original immigrants (pilgrims as an example) that built the Country were actually productive, in some ways, the best of the UK that fled UK. Had the original immigrants come from another place, it's likely US today would've been 100 years behind. Would've indigenous people of America advanced society or would be still be roaming around with bows and arrows? the type of people that migrate, matters, a lot.

They overexpanded, overspent, too many wars, were overly reliant on slave labour, made economic policy mistakes, corruption and more, but a big reason for their demise was also diversity. Germanic tribes, barbarian groups who eventually defeated them? migration of barbarian tribes had a huge negative effect. Rise in Christianity? erosion of traditional values had a big impact.


One of the biggest lies today is that diversity is always good. History shows that most wars and atrocities have been committed on the basis on differences of religion, race, values, ideologies, nationality. Diversity is solely responsible for almost all wars. We pretend it's not true and part of it that we all try and convince people that diversity shouldn't divide us, should be embraced. This is an attempt to avoid conflict but we cannot ignore human history.. for thousands of years diversity has created many many problems; in fact, directly responsible for almost every war and atrocity and we cannot erase it or avoid it, we were humans back then and humans today. Diversity will continue to create problems and we have to address it by first accepting it is a challenge. Would we have any of this division today if every American were of the same race, ideology? It's increasing diversity that is dividing us. We have to be thoughtful and accept it as a difficult issue to manage, pretending it's always good is ignoring human history.

Immigrants that result in an increase of poverty, diversity in ideology, race, can create many problems. Whether you like it or not, it's truth and we need to have an honest conversation about it if we want to address it. Immigration usually results in an increase of diversity and can lead to many problems, as history shows.

 

The problem with this thread is that Socialism is not defined - and everyone has a different definition.

Fairy tale definition: If we want to talk "Pure Socialism" - full ownership of all resources and means of production by the the collective - this simply does not exist in any nation. So no .. we are not Socialist on that basis.

Real world definition: What we do see is varying degree's of partial ownership - not by the collective but, by elected or non elected elites at that form the Gov't. .

This ownership is expressed in different ways - most often indirectly through taxation. This form of socialism exists in most nations.

Socialism is a form of wealth redistribution - be it direct (such as the case of Venezuela where the Gov't just takes over companies) - or indirect which is the case for most nations in the form of taxation.

By the "real world definition" - the US is socialist.

 

I appreciate that you took the time to argue against something I didn't say. And having the gall to call it disingenuous.

Other places? Like Africa? France? Spain? Other parts of Europe? Most of the early settlers were poor and uneducated, and they did the majority of the heavy labor, as usual.

The Germanic tribes also guarded the outer edges of the border for hundreds of years before the collapse. This was because they needed to focus their war effort in other areas.

Whether you like it or not, diversity comes with empire. Notice how quickly fascist empires collapse? The assimilate or die mentality is a continuous loser. And I certainly don't want to live in a place where everyone looks, thinks and acts the same way.

 

The key to it all. That, and a very unified and homogenous culture.

Unfortunately, their immigration profligacy will bring an end to both.

 

Those countries are capitalist democracies. They have simply chosen - universally (full agreement is essential - hence these things only work in unified cultures with unified worldviews) - to spend some of that capital on social programs. And social programs are a luxury only afforded by the most heartily capitalist societies, obviously.

 

Why do you think assimilation makes people look the same? What a bizarre concept.

Meantime, so you like a good solid mix of folk around you do you? Tell us about your personal situation. Marry someone of a completely different race? How about multi-hued friends, other than those acquired to enhance your Prog credentials? And how much time have you spent living in - and participating in fully - a thoroughly alien culture?

 

I assume those who obsess about assimilation are part of The Thing.

Like Dr. Moreau?

Don’t be a creep.

Prog credentials? Is that something you think about?

Unfortunately, I’ve never been to an alien planet.

 

Here the whole deal with immigration is a cynical ploy to create a Democrat supermajority and that is beyond denial. Sweden had nothing to gain by allowing an inordinate amount of muslims into their country. I just don't get that. It's not like they didn't already have France and the US as examples of what not to do.

 

Well before you can fix it you'd have to get democrats to admit that the problem is their creation and almost everything they do exacerbates the problem.

 

I don't know about Scandinavia but here in the US it's used as bait to lure more illegal immigrants. The Democrat plan is to overwhelm the welfare system to precipitate a crisis to replace it with socialism. Its an old fantasy of the left that they have implemented in various forms all of which not have succeeded to achieve the desired effect but account for the shambles they have made of America. Read Cloward-Piven, they authored this insanity.

 

They'll never admit it and the only way to fix the problem is to get rid of the Democrat/Communist party. We need at least five decades of a solid Republican majority to straighten out this mess but we also need new constitutional protections against it. If the Republicans could nail down all three branches for just a decade they could Democrat proof the country and set America back on it's destined path.

 

and it brings empires to its knees, eventually. When you allow masses of unproductive, uneducated, ignorant people, especially those who want to eventually seek autonomy, empires start too collapse. Look at it as pollution, that eventually suffocates a Country within.

Look at France and Sweden, all those immigrants are wreaking havoc. France's muslim migration has being a disaster for France.

The left likes to supress facts, they call everyone a racist but we have to keep fighting this because when truths are not discussed, problems are never addressed. The United States has been the most successful, most powerful Country in the world, fact. It is not perfect but it is the center of innovation, prosperity and has saved the world from evils like Hitler. Just because it's history is not squeaky clean (slavery etc...) doesn't mean it hasn't been a great great Country. If you look back at history, every country, society has had it's fair share of dark spots. No Country has been squeaky clean, Africans had slaves before US ever had slaves, as an example. We have largely corrected past mistakes and continue to address issues. In the end, there is no denying that traditional American values have been a big part of the US's success and that is eroding, largely due to the left's push to change America, the empire is beginning to fall.

 

and make stuff up. The left has a lot of soul searching to do, how honest have they been to themselves about their politics? Is it really the pursuit of lofty goals or sugar coated lust for power? Diversity has always been a part of the American fabric but with the requirement of assimilation. We cannot not continue as a nation if we allow people to live here that don't adopt and actively participate in our culture, otherwise we'll become another Tower of Babble.

 

You paint a picture of all immigrants being dumb and unproductive, and then complain about being stereotyped. Refugees don't come from thin air, and it certainly wasn't the idea of "the left" to decimate the Middle East. France and Sweden have taken on a heavy burden, and yeah, that's going to put a lot of stress on their countries. The US had similar problems when accepting the Irish, Italian, German, Russian, and Jewish refugees while Europe was hell on Earth.

Now I don't think we can take in every refugee in the world, neither can Sweden or France. I also never wanted to go to Syria in the first place. That's the crux of the problem, these ill-advised military campaigns, which are always the true death of empires, always. If there was more focus on reforming foreign policy, and making economic decisions based on more than stock market speculation, maybe we could prevent this ship from sinking. Pointing fingers at refugees and looking to blame everything on the left-wing boogieman is just the final screams for help before drowning.

 

Not our problem.

Different times, better class of people.

Trump has done more for American foreign policy than anyone since Reagan.

Are you an economist? The US is in better economic shape than it has been since WWII.

Importing poverty makes zero sense. We are no longer drowning, we were until November 2016. In order to capitalize on this boom, the US needs to ban all immigration for at least a decade.

 

Thanks for the talking points.

 

guess what, i'm a latino immigrant myself, naturalized citizen now. Many here are shocked to hear this as they can't fathom a latino immigrant holding all of the positions i hold.

Here's the deal. I came into this Country because i valued the American system, their traditions and it is a country that gives you unlimited opportunities that many other countries don't. I studied, worked hard and have been employed ever since coming here, i'm not a drag on this Country. I love this Country and proud to be an American citizen. Unfortunately, too many immigrants are not like me.

Now that's not to say i consider myself superior but is it too much to ask for to require immigrants to come here to be productive? respect the laws? study American History and learn to value American traditions and values that have made this Country the most prosperous and powerful Country in the history of the world? This Country awards it's citizens many freedoms, freedoms many other Countries don't offer, yes, even right to bear arms.

Many immigrants don't even love this Country, the left has convinced them that it's a 'racist' Country who built the Country off the backs of slaves, that the constitution is flawed, founding fathers were just racist white men and that whites are all bad as they are decsendants of European colonists (bad, bad, awful people). These immigrants who come here and subscribe to all of this, want to change America and the left supports it as a means to attain power. We have seen this throughout history and it repeats itself - an empire/superpower advances upholding a unique set of traditions and values. Over time, it is infiltrated by those who want to change those traditions and values, this is the beginning of the end.