Oklahoma Senate overwhelmingly approves bill saying life begins at conception

Yes, Hat, but there is a difference between who can care for a baby in the womb, and a baby outside the womb, isnt there? Inside the womb, the only person who can keep that baby alive is the biological mother. Outside the womb, the biological mother doesn't even need to see her baby because she isn't physically required to keep the baby alive.

Physical dependence is a lot different to being dependent socially.

 

Oh now we have developed enough to survive. LOL

Got news fer ya…..any life born needs help and assistance or it will die. It is no different than the life in the womb.

You have no clue as to rights…..sigh.

Your position is all over the place.

Abortion is ok…because the woman has the right to kill. But what? Now your going to take her rights away? LMAO

So much for freedom eh?

 

You're deliberately missing the point. If you're going to do that, we cannot have a conversation.

Rights are only decided by law. We're having a conversation about what rights the law gives you. There are very few laws that don't have limitations. Not the 1st amendment, not the 2nd amendment, there are limitations all over the place on what you can and cannot do. There is nothing hypocritical or "all over the place" in my believing that a woman DOES have the right to control her own reproductive health decisions, but be in favor of limitations on when she can apply those rights. That's how a civilized society works, through compromise instead of absolutism. I don't speak in absolutes, because absolutes rarely, if ever, exist. By your logic, people could own whatever guns they wanted, including rocket launchers and advanced missile systems because the 2nd amendment says you have the right to arms. Your logic would decree that I should be able to drive as fast as I want to on the road because it's legal to drive cars. Afterall, saying it's okay to drive cars automatically means it's okay to drive them with absolutely no limitations ever, right?

 

It makes no sense. To tell a woman that she is not carrying a person…that she can kill the life in her anyway because SHE OWNS THE RIGHTS TO HER OWN BODY, that it is a personal decision. Then for the law to turn around and tell her….oh by the way…you just lost the rights to your body because we think that life we did not recognize needs to be recognized. It makes no sense it is not logical. It was a way the courts could get out of totally looking bad and inhumane. That is hypocritical thinking. To own something then lose it.

So for me to work to ban abortion is logical by this way of thinking. Because if you take the rights to the woman's body away….at anytime during the pregnancy…then you can ban it altogether and tell her she has no rights at all to kill.

And to equate this to owning a gun or car…is ridiculous. We are talking about life here and the killing of an innocent human being. That is something you don't seem to get, and don't seem to care about.

 

Inside the womb doctors can do life saving operations and procedures.

I could post hundreds of examples like this one.

http://www.9news.com/news/world/202122/347/Doctors-operate-on-baby-in-womb-to-save-her-life

 

No wonder we as a nation are going down the tubes.

 

People own things and then lose them all the time. Court's routinely garnish wages, lock bank accounts, confiscate personal property, and even take land from you through eminent domain. The concept is nothing new.

No you can't. You could argue that in court, sure, but it's up to a judge on whether that's actually a valid argument. Plus, it all depends on the reasoning behind the limitations and whether they conflict with the spirit, intent, and application of the law. Study the legal system, you will find examples of this all over the place.

What I chose to use as my examples is not the point, as they are just examples of the effect of the logic you are using here. It would result in exactly the situations I outlined, and obviously they are ridiculous. The law can easily put restrictions on something without completely outlawing it, and I gave examples of that very thing. The abortion debate is no different. The law can recognize that abortion is a mother's right but still put reasonable limitations on it. What those limitations are and why they exist isn't something that is up to me or any single person, it's up to the courts, the people whose job it is to interpret the law and how it can be applied.

 

Junkieturtle said,

No court should force a man to pay for something they never owned and had a choice in. You agree right?

" The law can easily put restrictions on something without completely outlawing it, and I gave examples of that very thing. The abortion debate is no different. The law can recognize that abortion is a mother's right but still put reasonable limitations on it. What those limitations are and why they exist isn't something that is up to me or any single person, it's up to the courts, the people whose job it is to interpret the law and how it can be applied.[/QUOTE]

Sure they can and the abortion issue is one example of how the law makes no sense and is whisky washy. The law was passed because the courts identified the woman as the sole ownership of her body. Her body…her decision. How do you after owning your body…have that right taken away…because the court all of a sudden said you must carry something, they did not identify as a person to begin with? You do agree right? That a woman should not lose ownership over her body…that the law is wrong in taking that right away?

Reasonable? LMAO Please. Believe me we are total opposites on this one…because our world views and everything we value are total opposites. I would suppose that we would disagree on every issue that ever was. I would never align myself with someone who had views as you do on especially this issue. For me it is that important…and the life issues says a lot about a persons character. And I will stop there.

The people who make law and view it….do it with bias…that is why laws change.

 

Yes. And I don't really argue the child support angle on abortion because it's a separate issue. I can see both sides of that argument.

I can easily say the same about morality and religion.

You don't have to tell me twice that we are opposites. But, I'd be willing to bet we have some common ground somewhere. For instance, you already brought up rape. I would imagine that we are both in agreement that rape is never okay.

 

You said your a moral relativist. If you are then rape is neither good or bad. Some people might think that rape is justified if the couple is married and the woman refuses sex. It is this way in some cultures. ARe you saying they are wrong? What right do you have to impose your morality on someone else?

I think rape in all circumstances is wrong….but based on what you said you were ….it can't be this way for you.

 

if you’re a moral relativist things can be good or bad for you and others. All rape can be wrong to you if you want laws you agree with you join up with people that feel the same way you do its no reason to accept rape from people who are ok with it


You just can’t say there objectively wrong just because rape can be acceptable to them

 

Moral relativism does not mean I don't ever think something is good or bad. It means I examine each situation to see the nuance and understand what's happening instead of falling back on an absolute law that I'm trying to apply to every situation. Please, I would urge you to reread this paragraph as many times as it takes for you to understand exactly what it says so you can stop misrepresenting me.

The crux of the matter is this. When it comes to abortion, I don't believe a fetus is a person. It does not have sentience, personality, memory, intellect, or feelings. It is a bunch of cells that will one day become a human being that possesses those qualities. So every time you call me a murderer, all I'm thinking is that I'm not more a murderer than you when you walk across the grass and step on an ant. But honestly, even if I did think it was a murder, I STILL don't believe I, or anyone, has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do to her womb. If you don't even have power over your own body, you are a prisoner, a slave, utterly without rights. That's not what I would have women be. Once the child is born, it's born, it's here, the situation has changed. That's my position. I have spelled it out for you. There is no more need of misrepresentation or assumption. My position on abortion does not automatically extend to any other issues. If you want to know how I feel about a different issue, ask. Surely you have the manners and the maturity to do that.

I too believe rape in all circumstances is wrong. Instead of assuming I feel one way or another, how about just asking how I feel? I'm right here, and obviously quite willing and able to respond, mmmkay?

 

That is not the same thing. 99% of the time, the woman keeps the baby alive, and in cases where fetal surgery is needed, the fetus can often survive in the womb until birth. It is when birth occurs that there are problems.

 

Look I have read the Bible and God has no use for the poison these people spread or their offspring.

 

Junkieturtle said,

For you there can be no absolute rule or law…no right or wrong. Its in the eye of the beholder. So whatever society thinks…is the law. One day who knows what will be legal. In my world I believe there is a right and wrong. If an accident happened….the truth exists. There is only one way that accident happened. For you…it does not matter….its what the majority think is right. No pursuit of truth in your book…because truth is relative, it does not matter.

It is sad that you view life in degrees. A fetus has no rights….a newborn baby less rights than a toddler…who has less rights than a adolescent who has less rights than a teenager…who has less rights than an adult…who has less rights than a senior citizen. And to bad you condone late term abortion…infanticide as well.

I have never skippy…..called you an outright murderer. So stop it. I do believe that the people who condone abortion have a hand in it…but that does not mean murder. So the dramatization on your part does not cut it. Do you feel however like you are a part of it? Maybe its a sense of guilt that you have?

And for you to equate an ant to a living human child…is absolutely so far off base it isn't funny. That is why I despise and get ill when I talk to people who share your views on life. A child=An ant…..wow.

So you condone abortion in the ninth month? So you do think its murder. You prove why pro-choicers are ALL OVER THE BOARD ON THIS ISSUE.. ITS MURDER…NO ITS NOT….ITS A HUMAN…..NO ITS NOT…..ITS A PERSON….NO ITS NOT…..ITS A PERSON AROUND 24 WEEKS….NO 23 WEEKS…..NO 21 1/2……NO 23 3/4. YES IM FOR PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION…..NO IM NOT…..

Do you see this pattern? Not consistent….off the charts all over the place.

The situation has changed? For whom has it changed? Your position on abortion affects your worldview because you condone killing. You show who you are just by this issue alone.

"I too believe rape in all circumstances is wrong. Instead of assuming I feel one way or another, how about just asking how I feel? I'm right here, and obviously quite willing and able to respond, mmmkay?"

Ok you think its wrong….but here is the catch toots……..YOU SHOULD NOT BY YOUR OWN POSITION ON RIGHT OR WRONG….TELL ANOTHER PERSON THAT RAPE IS WRONG. WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO DO THIS? ITS YOUR OPINION…AND THAT IS IT.

You tell me I have no right to impose my values and morals on other people. Then the same should apply to you. Get it?

 

Hmmm I think lifers can start by adopting all the homeless children, then they can tackle their soapbox issue. This is settled law and they have no right what so ever to impose their beliefs on others. Also they should be against the death penalty and wars. Personally, I think it is a huge waste of tax payers money.

 

What makes a rule absolute? What makes killing wrong? Is there something that exists that physically or metaphysically makes it wrong? Some kind of force, maybe? Or is it a majority rules kind of thing?

Right and wrong may be relative, but truth isn't. Truth is objective, it is separate from morality. If you're suggesting I have to lie to myself to be pro-choice, that's not the case.

There's only two degrees. Born and unborn. I don't believe your rights change in quite the fashion that you laid out there.

My position hasn't changed once, and I know this because it's the same position I've had for a number of years. I'll lay it out for you one more time.

If the debate was over NO abortion or ALL abortion being legal, I would have to choose All. If it's not, if abortion is going to be legal with some limitations, I would support a cut-off date in the pregnancy after which abortion was no longer an option excluding extreme circumstances like health issues or an undiscovered birth defect. I consider that to be the ideal way to go because it's a compromise, a balance, between the two sides. Abortion remains legal, but with limitations, including no partial birth abortions.

I haven't told another person that rape is wrong. I do think it's wrong, and I could even tell another person it's wrong, but that doesn't make it objectively and universally wrong or that the person should think it's wrong because I said it was. There is nothing that is objectively and universally wrong because right and wrong are determined by humanity.

 

Yes of course you would say that…..and take care of all you left wing radical moochers off the governments mistakes. Because we value life….all you who don't should be exempt from doing anything to tote the load or to take responsibility for you actions. I get it…we should pay for being moral.

This is law….but honey we have every right to overturn it. Sodomy was once illegal….should that have remained illegal? Abortion was illegal….are you saying that it should have remained illegal…and people should have just shut up about it?

Of is it your belief that only radical liberals only get to try to change things?

What is a waste of taxpayers money is the LEFT and supporting their immoral godless views and socialism. Hey…you guys are so nice…why don't you all give your money away…and live on the streets….since you are so compassionate and concerned about the poor….LMAO

How many Hollywood elite would do this? How many Democratic politicians would do that. The party of the little people? No the party of the small mind….

 

Hey you tell me…you are the moral relativist. Is killing wrong? You maintain that killing an unborn in the womb for nine months is acceptable. Who told you that? And who tells the people who value life in the womb that it is wrong?

I know what controls me, where my morals come from how about you?

You don't think right and wrong has anything to do with truth? Beliefs matter. Do you think anyone can say they know the truth?

You said you were a moral relativist. Relativism is the belief that we cannot know what is true. There is a huge problem with this thinking.
If you say we cannot know what is true….that statement would have to be true if relativism were correct. But relativism say we can't know if anything is true or false, so we could not even know if the statement, We cannot know what is true, is true !!! Relativism is absolutely 100% self refuting….because there is such a thing as truth.

If a car accident happened at the corner and you are one of ten witnesses and the police after investigating comes up with eight different versions of what happened….that has nothing to do with the fact that the accident happened one way….even though people saw it eight different ways. Who was at fault…? People make decisions about what is true and false all the time. We make decisions about what to believe to be true or not true by trying to figure out what makes the best sense from the available evidence.

When I am debating or discussing my faith, Christianity…or anyone is for that matter…truth claims about religion are no different. I believe that what the Bible teaches about nature, my life, God, humanity..etc…makes the most sense out of the world and human experience.

I lot of people say that only you can decide whats right and wrong for yourself. No one can say what's right or wrong for other people. No one should be able to tell a woman that abortion is wrong. If this assumption is correct then how can someone answer these questions? Is it ok for people to harm the environment? Should people try to end poverty? Is sexism or racism wrong?

If you cannot say whats right or wrong then you cannot say that other people should or should not do the things in these questions. BEcause how could you stand up against bad things in their world or stand up for what is good if you can't say that anything is better or worse than anything else?

We must be able to say some things people do are wrong..or society would not be livable. Whats funny is that you and the proaborts here on this forum tell those who think abortion is wrong that we are wrong.…you think you have that right to do so…but we who think that you are wrong…should not be able to voice that opinion. When it works against you…your all against it.

Cut off date? Why? Is there something wrong with abortion? If there is why do you condone it? Where is the truth in abortion for the unborn, the ones getting killed? Compromise? I think you want to compromise only because you know that abortion is immoral…its a way you can say to yourself….I am not that bad. The thing about this whole thing is this.

You have said abortion should be legal because the woman has the right to ownership of her body. That should include the entire nine months, right? Why do you want to enslave her, take her rights away? You should be out there fighting for the woman's rights to kill all nine months…thats what I don't get.

So abortion by what you said here…should be legal..for any reason at any time.

 

Nobody told me that, that's what I decided for myself. It's my right to have an opinion on anything I want to. My sharing that opinion with others, and even in the event that I told someone else they had to do what I said or think how I think, in no way binds anyone to anything. It is my opinion and mine alone. I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, so I cannot tell you who tells the people who value life in the womb that it is wrong.

My morals come from what I've decided is right and wrong, which is based on ideals of mutual respect, courtesy, and decency. Christ taught quite a bit about being compassionate and respectful to your fellow human beings, and I believe in a lot of those ideals as well. However, my morality does not give me the right to break the law. It's pretty lucky for me then, that my morals tend to run pretty parallel with the law. Rape is illegal, just like I think it should be. Stealing from other people is illegal, just like I think it should be. Telling a lie under oath is illegal, just like I think it should be.

They aren't connected, unless perhaps you're talking about a situation where you base your judgment of right and wrong off of false information.

Then that is not what I am. I completely believe in truth, but it's objective truth, completely free from moral judgments of right and wrong. I gave you an analogy the other day regarding expansion of the universe. Same deal.

People can answer those questions based on how they feel about each issue. I'm not seeing the problem you're seeing here.

We do. That's what the law is. But the law isn't universal or existent with or without mankind. If there is no mankind, or in a democratic country the consent of the majority(give or take depending on their individual constitutions), there is no law.

And I've never said you can't voice your opinion. Seriously, I haven't. Voice it all you want. What I've been saying all along is, I feel your opinion isn't fair to the woman because it takes away her control over her body. It's called disagreeing with you. I'm allowed to do that, right? Abortion isn't legal because I say it is. It's legal because the law makes it so. That doesn't make it right or wrong, it just makes it legal.

I just explained my position in my previous post, are you still having trouble grasping it? Go read it again.

 

Junkieturtle said,

You said to deny a woman the right to kill her living human child is ok and wrong for me to deny her this right. Why is it wrong?

You decided. So if someone rapes then they might be ok in doing so? What is decency. Tearing a human child in the womb apart? Is that decent to you? Wow.

Do you think based on Christ and his perfect life…that he would have been joyed over His creation being torn and ripped apart in the womb? Is this the compassionate thing to do to an innocent life because his/her mother messed up?
Our laws reflect the times and who is in control. Left wing humanists are in control…so that is why just about everything goes today. We celebrate what is deviant. You look at stuff so long that you begin to think its acceptable. So down the line…I can only imagine what your side will enact into law. Probably killing small children. Dropping them off at centers to be euthanized. Quick and easy…no muss no fuss and economically the way to go.

But the truth for you is what you make it. And if you allow yourself that room then you must allow everyone else that room. Sharia law…racism, sexism, child pornography, rape…stealing……everything goes. Not your place to say something is right or wrong. Truth for you is what you want it to be.

I believe somewhere along the line you said I have no right to force someone to adhere to abortion being illegal. You are saying I AM WRONG. And because you don't know what truth is…how can you say this? How can you tell me I am wrong? In your worldview you can't. You are left with the door wide open…everything goes. Abortion was passed because of the bias of the SCOTUS. They were fed lies and facts that never happened. Our laws like I said reflect the times. Abortion, same sex marriage, sodomy, were all once illegal…and now Left wing radical judges say that they should be legal. Does not matter what the people as a whole want…..they overturn what they people want.

I have a right to work to overturn the law. And you should support me and think its great…seeing you don't know the truth…that you can't ever know the truth.

 

Nah, they can't do that because once a baby is born, they wash their hands and go back to protesting outside abortion clinics. And they are fine with the death penalty because they believe in the 'eye for an eye' rubbish, and war is perfectly okay because Americans must be defended at all costs, even if it means the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

 

The continued blasting of threads with partisan, dishonest, and completely untrue generalizations serves no positive purpose--I guess other than to reveal who is actually interested in debating the issue versus who is interested in simply derailing the topic with generalized partisan attacks.

 

Junkieturtle said,

You said there was no right or wrong…that truth is relative. In fact case you never can tell anyone they are wrong…based on your own worldview and position.

But killing an eight, nine month old child in the womb is ok, a woman's right?
Rape is violent but even rape does not kill someone and take their life away.

Rape should be allowed if what your position says is true…no right no wrong….truth in th eyes of the beholder.

And those would be what? Love? Yea love…thats the one that is used the most. The fact that Christ came to save the lost….the fact that he talked about hell even more than heaven….the fact that he said he was the ONLY WAY to heaven that people would die in their sins without Him….that does not matter. For some he was only about love…and when what He said convicted them in other ways…by showing that their actions are sinful….they don't take that part of Christ to heart.

That would be a great idea…wonderful…..bravo….now your cooking…..fantastic. Then no one would be slaughtered and more and more lives would be saved.

We also should then sterilize them like Sanger wanted to do…that is to the unfit…who should have gotten permission to even get pregnant…..undesirables…then they could be sent to a camp….to live with all the other outcasts of society.

FANTASTIC IDEA MY FRIEND.

If siding with life is ridiculous….then call me ridiculous. You keep changing your position….realizing that you are wrong. Compromise……if you were that strong in your conviction then…you would not give an inch. I WONT GIVE AN INCH.

Our laws restrict. And you want to enforce your view on society. And your view backs up the rights of every woman who wants the option to kill the life inside her. You want this option legal…because you think its the moral and right thing to do. But there is another side equally as valid, by your own admission. There is no truth….so abortion being legal…isn't the truth, abortion being illegal is not the truth.

How do you live this way?

And you probably no doubt think group marriage or polygamy should also be legal. Those poor people want to marry as well. So lets just let anyone who shows up at the courthouse….even with their pet pooch…..get married.

As I said….you want everything legal by your own worldview. That is not livable….that is not healthy…..and it laughs in the face of morality and the things that have made America one of the greatest nations on earth. Today we aren't….thanks to people who believe this way, that there should be no restrictions, if it feels good do it. They suck the life out of everything good…and they celebrate the deviant. SAy goodbye to the traditional family…who needs a mother and father….anyway. That is old and passé. Hey did you ever read a Brave New World…..by Huxley. That is the world you want….how sad.