Oklahoma Senate overwhelmingly approves bill saying life begins at conception

I haven't actually read the Oklahoma law but the article states that it is based upon the Supreme Court decision in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services and while Missouri did impose some limitation starting at 20 weeks to verify whether the fetus was viable it was in compliance with the precedent established by Roe v Wade.

In short so long as the state law or state Constitution does not deny elective abortion during the first trimester nor deny it based upon doctor-patient agreement during the second trimester or prohibit it if the woman's life or health are in danger during the 3rd trimester (which has been slightly modified since Roe v Wade) then the law or state Constitution is not unconsitutional. If the state imposes any limitation which violate the Roe v Wade decision then the law is unconstitutional.

What we're really seeing is a lot of posturing by Republican politicians that know that they can't change Roe v Wade so they're passing BS laws to appease the anti-abortion/anti-woman constituancy of the Republican Party. They're basically pandering to idiots of the Religious Right that believe these laws have any real meaning.

Only a Constitutional Amendment can change the Roe v Wade legal precedent and everyone with half a brain knows that. The problem for anti-abortionists is that they don't even represent 1/2 of the voting public and don't come anywhere close to controlling 3/4ths of the State Legislatures required to ratify a Constitutional Amendment. Currently the entire Republican Party that passes these stupid laws only represents 27% of the voting public and that isn't nearly enough to force a Constitutional Amendment through that would violate the Rights of the Woman.

 

Shiva…you make statements here that you have no way of proving. You have no clue nor does anyone if this issue was put up for public vote…how it would turn out. No way of knowing. You assume that others like killing unborn children like you do. There might be people out there with more morals than you think.

Stupid laws?……the pro-choice position makes me want to puke. You actually told me that I had half a brain…so I feel that I can say….that you have half a heart…if that. No one who loved children…who loved life….who had any compassion and humanity in them….would stand on the position that you do. I can only imagine how you live your life……seriously.

 

Junkieturtle said,

So rape can be ok….then right? And pedophiles….what they do could be ok as well?

You said…there is no universal right or wrong….so how can you tell me or anyone for that matter that we are wrong? LMAO

You are the easy person on this forum to figure out…even when you shift gears which is a lot. I know what your worldview encompasses….thats a no brainer. I could care less about your personal life…I am here to debate statements….positions.

HAHA yea ok. Gotcha. You want to hear all the good stuff…and reject the things that might convict your worldview. The lessons He taught include respect and valuing life. THE LIFE HE CREATED. AND YOU ARE THE OPPOSITE OF HIM IN THE FACT THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE LIFE HE CREATED SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE SLAUGHTERED. So whatever he taught…you did not pick up thats for sure.

Sure ya did back when we were talking about compromise…remember you said that you would change…to reach a compromise. I said I would not.

Well maybe you don't believe strongly enough in anything to even try. But people can make a difference. And when the idiots that voted Obama in office voted for change we inaugurated a Bozo who is now running the country and singlehandedly….taking down America.

Now I would just bet knowing you from the comments you make….that your an Obama fan? In fact I would bet Grannie…Cady….and the rest of the group love Obama as well. The life issue affects peoples world views…its not hard to see.

HAHAh You kill me. You believe in peoples rights..but want to deny groups to marry. Polygamy is as old as the hills….and you want to enslave people to live in a way…that fits YOUR VIEWS. Shame shame…..I am shocked. Your view on this is terribly narrow-minded and old fashioned don't you think? LOL

Polygamy is right around the corner….and as soon as gay marriage is legal in all states….polygamy will happen next. I live in ARizona…and there are many polygamists in the northern part of the state….and the wheels are turning…the ACLU is working to legalize this as well. GAys will just say it won't happen because they are afraid people won't support them.

 

South Dakota, 2006. The legislature votes to ban all abortion. It's then taken to a state referendum, and the state voters overwhelmingly overturn the legislature, 56-44.

Mississippi, 2011. Ballot referendum to define personhood at conception and thus ban abortion. Fails big.

So, in two recent votes in heavily conservative states, the pro-lifers went down in flames. And there are other state referendums. Pro-lifers always lose these votes, even in the most conservative states. America obviously thinks your beliefs are an immoral crock.

 

I've actually read the decision in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services upon which this law was supposedly based. I've also read Roe v Wade and understand the foundation for it. The Court in it's exploration of the issues related to abortion in Roe v Wade addressed the fact that the US Constitution solely limits the protections of inalienable Rights to "persons" and that there was no historical precedence of "personhood" prior to birth.

The only way to impart "personhood" prior to birth in the United States, in effect establishing a new precedent that hasn't existed throughout the history of mankind, is by Constitutional Amendment. This is not based upon a popular vote but instead a Constitutional Amendment requires the ratification of 3/4ths of the States. It is a high standard and rightfully should be a high standard as we don't want frivolous precedent established based upon popularity contests by a fundamentally uninformed electorate.

This is an issue of law and not emotion. Instead of a knee-jerk reaction based upon emotion I address the matter as a legal matter related to the protections of the inalienable Rights of the Individual which was the foundation of government in America.

Even in addressing public opinion current polling statistics, which I've posted on a related thread, shows that 47% of those polled believed that abortion should only be allowed in some cases or not at all while 52% believed that abortion should be allowed in all cases or in most cases. It is admittedly a close issue based upon public opinion but the anti-Abortionists are still a minority. That is a fact that cannot be disputed.

While not condemning anyone personally, anyone that doesn't understand this is a matter of Constitutional law is really not thinking at all. They are obviously only using half of their brain and need to step back, investigate the actual Supreme Court precedent related to abortion, and then present valid arguments based upon the US Constitution. All laws including State Constitutions are subordinate to the US Constitution and the US Supreme Court has been very articulate in establishing precedent related to the issue of abortion under the Constitution in Roe v Wade. The foundation for the Roe v Wade is so sound that unless the US Constitution changes there will be no significant changes based upon other legislative measures such as the Oklahoma law. Any law that violates the Roe v Wade decision it will be struck down as being unconstitutional and justifiably so. The woman has inalienable Rights that are protected by the US Constitution because she has established her personhood at birth. A zygote, embryo and/or fetus is not a person based upon historical precedent. Only "persons" have inalienable Rights under the US Constitution.

The anti-abortionists are entitled to their emotional beliefs but if the want anything to change they need to follow the Constitutional processes of the United States in implementing that change. If they don't realize that then they're not using their whole brain.

Only a Constitutional Amendment can change the established precedent related to abortion in America.

 

Not to me. Maybe some other person can have the justification for it being okay, but I don't. The only thing is, and this the point I've been trying to make which you keep missing or deliberately misrepresenting, there is nothing in the world that makes rape objectively wrong. There is no force(unless you believe in God, but that still doesn't make it "real") that lays down what is good and what isn't. Good and evil are decided upon by humanity. It's why the definitions of those two things change over time.

I can tell them all I want, but there is no universal standard that I can hold them up to. Like I said, there is no "Handbook of the Universe" that I can refer to and say definitely that something is right or wrong. Morality is decided upon by humanity. Now, I CAN hold them up to the law, and since I feel rape or theft or arson is not something I want to be happening, I am glad the law makes those things illegal.

Everyone makes a choice on their own morality. Nobody is forced to believe anything. Even someone who chooses to be religious and follow the morality of the bible has made a conscious decision to do so. They have chosen those morals. They weren't universal, they were chosen.

I don't shift gears. I've been saying the same thing, in pretty much every post, because in every reply you show me that you haven't understood or are deliberately misrepresenting the things that I've said. Since it IS possible you don't understand, I told you to ask and I will explain instead of just assuming you know my worldview, because you don't. And if you're here to debate statements and positions, stop fabricating what my positions and statements are. I have not done the same to you.

Yes, that's right, in cases of pregnancy I believe it is the mother's choice to be pregnant or have an abortion. So, are you saying that because my beliefs might conflict with Christ's in a few cases, I can't think that some of the things he taught are good and worthy of emulation? Because I'm pro-choice, I can't think it's worthwhile to treat other people with respect? Because I'm pro-choice, I shouldn't be compassionate with people who ARE alive? I'm sorry, but you don't make the rules are what is universally right or wrong, and you don't make the rules about what I can and cannot believe.

Plus, I don't believe he created that life in the first place, and I've not held a belief in God since long before I even knew what pro-choice and pro-life meant. I have not believed in God since the 5th grade, when I decided it just didn't make any sense.

Good for you. But I explained exactly why I would be willing to compromise and it wasn't because i was saying that abortion is kinda sorta sometimes maybe wrong. I said I wanted to compromise because that's how you do things in a democracy, with a large group of people with millions of their own views on things. You find middle ground. I don't get to have the rules exactly the way I want them, and neither does anyone else because we're all a part of the same society.

 

Put to a nationwide vote…don't be so sure. Just like with gay marriage….public votes it down….liberal judges overturn the people.

In South Dakota it was turned down because rape and incest were taken off the table and it was all abortion. Had they been in the referendum….it surely would have passed…and abortion for any other reason would have been banned.

In fact they have one of the toughest laws about abortion on the books….the waiting period…and meeting with the doctor.

In Mississippi..the same thing. Rape and incest and health of mother was not in the bill. It was all abortion. Of course it would be defeated. LOL

People are saying in both states….the health of the mother and two other considerations should be listed. You add these exceptions…..and they all would have passed.

Giving personhood to the fetus…would mean abortion is murder. If that happened….no other reason could be used for any woman to get one.

 

Junkie

But this whole debate is about freedoms. You say I have no right to want abortion legal because that prevents others from killing their children. Apply this to other things…issues…allowing others to live and you have no right whether society says it ok or not…to prevent me from doing what I want.

If you think rape could ever possibly be ok…then God help you. Wow. Would it be ok if I just killed someone child? Or kidnapped them? ARe these objectively not wrong either? LOL

No truth….? Wow.


I think you are wrong…there is truth and there is a universal standard based on truth. If not then……I am within my right to shoot your pet pooch dead. He ate some of my grass…had to shoot him.

We are forced to abide by the laws of the country. Our country says killing children is ok if you hire to have it done. Our country says sodomy is ok now…but having sex with a barn yard animal even if you own it is wrong. Also you can't sell sex for cash….but if you are a boxer you can get in the ring and try to kill someone. Abortion is acceptable…but **** fighting is wrong. LMAO Kids going behind parents backs to get an abortion is ok…but getting a tattoo requires their permission.

Yea our laws….

Oh i completely get you….your easy to get. But you don't get what relativism is and that is obvious. I am not misrepresenting anything.

People do that to me all the time. I am a pro-lifer so in that case…I am pro-death penalty…..and I don't care about the women who have had abortions…and certainly I am not pro-adoption…in fact we don't care about anything other than abortion…not even the well being of the children who are born under hard circumstances. I am none of those…..

So ok what is your worldview……I know you are pro-abortion….what else.

I think there is but one sin that keeps you from Heaven….and its what Christ says…."I am the Way the Truth and the Life…NO ONE comes to the FAther but through Me." He came to save people who are lost. And you are lost if you do not have Christ. So you can have any view you want…but without Christ nothing matters…you can be good….help the poor…etc etc….but Christ says….that He is the Truth. So the truth is Christ and all He stands for. Anything less…does not matter to HIm….you might think it does…but you would not be scripturally right.

I do not hate people who are pro-abortion….not at all. Do I know people who are pro-abortion, yes. Do I respect them concerning this NO. I am 56 years old and I am old enough to have witnessed a few things in my life. And I maintain that this life issue….colors a persons heart and their actions. And I choose not to be around people who condone the sloughier or human children any more than I have too. Can someone be pro-abortion and be saved. Yes. But I believe they will have to answer to Christ…for all words and actions.

Then you can't possibly get what I am saying. We are talking apples and oranges here. We are not and never will be on the same wave length. Our world views are totally different…like night and day. You can't possibly feel what I feel because you lack faith in God.

Yes making sense to you……means abortion….to solve problems….how sad…how tragic your worldview.

Compromise means changing your opinion…altering it. You see I can't do that…compromise or alter it…because it is so deeply connected to my faith in God. To do so would be sin it would be caving in….I won't do that. There is no middle ground on life. There might be if your trying to decide if peanut butter or chocolate cookies are the best….and you have to give in. But not when you are dealing with SOMEONE ELSES LIFE.

Yes I do….for like I said….selling the country out….and also downright lying to the American Public. His poll numbers are horrible. What about the change he promised? Socialism? Government forced health care that is unconstitutional?
A war he campaigned on a promise that he would end it the VERY FIRST THING HE DID. He has kissed the Muslim world….thumbed his nose up at England and Israel…and talked about his Muslim faith. No one ever will convince me he is even a citizen. Not when it took Trump and three years later to cough a BC up. And the investigation will go on……and one day…he will be exposed but he won't be in office. I think there is a massive coverup….with the radical Left and media. I think he is evil.

I could have told you that…and I did. You can tell Obama supporters. And usually those who love abortion…are Democrats. Just the way it is. There is no compromising when it comes to the Constitution…and his health care goes against our laws. The SCourt will speak and then what will BArack do?
There ya go….hating the Christian Right…which is me. Your not open minded…are you? You would never vote Republican….its opposite of what your all about.
you do nothing here but defend the Democratic Party….the socialist party. I am not a socialist….but you are aren't you? You believe in redistributing the wealth..and everything Obama stands for. Come on just admit it. What did you think however when he did not end the war….and it took three years and seining thirty some thousand more troops over there. LOL Ok now defend him…but I remember him saying…….YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK…..right after he said…I WILL END THE WAR THE FIRST THING AFTER TAKING OFFICE. Where did all the war protesters go? LMAO

You talk about education…hell Obama has yet to reveal his educational records. LOL And his medical records….Why? What does he have to hide? Every other president has done this…..but oh no….not BArack. Hypocrite. Just like this spring break……his administrations says…..KIDS DON'T GO TO MEXICO. Where did his precious little girl go on Spring Break? MEXICO. But of course she took millions of dollars worth of FBI agents with her…and she took friends of course. But then Barack thinks himself a Kennedy…an elite. The only thing that has gotten better since his taking office…..has been his personal golf game. Spending is higher than every before…and gas….well gas does not matter to him…..it gets him where he wants to go…on all those vacations….on Airforce One.

This is the funniest things you have ever said……its like …duh……of course your Obamas…in every way.

I could not stand McCain…..but I would never vote for a socialist party and that is what the Democrats are. Plus they are the party who loves to kill children. Anyone was better than Obama, anyone.

Why do you need other information? Its freedom and people rights to marry whom they want. Isn't it?

Even in nature….the family unit is the father, mother and child. I am not going to get into that here….you want to debate that…make a thread I will come.

 

What right do you have to vote to decide what women can and cannot do with their bodies?

Butt out and let women make their own decisions.

 

"Oklahoma Senate overwhelmingly approves bill saying life begins at conception "

baking a cake starts when you crack the first egg... but that doesn't guarantee your gonna have a cake when your finished

the baker can always decide not to finish making the cake

when you have a cake, then you can say this cake began by the cracking of an egg

 

a post starts by hitting the reply button... but that doesn't mean every time someone hits that button that a post will be born

some will abort the process

 

I can see that we are at an impasse of opinions. I do not have a belief in God as a supernatural omnipotent being. I believe a lot of what the bible taught is good and wholesome and worthwhile. Yes, we differ in opinion on abortion, quite a bit it would seem, yet I am firmly confident that we have more common ground than we have differences, at least when it comes to right and wrong. I know you don't believe that, because you cannot comprehend how I could based on my views on abortion. Fair enough, but that doesn't change reality.

You have spent countless posts playing Psychic Friends with my life, assigning positions to me that I've never taken and in most cases never would take. That's fine, I can tell you're passionate about the issue, and I don't blame you. It's a largely emotional one. But there's a couple things I want you to know. First, I am not "the left". I am not "Obama's". And I don't vote on a presidential candidate based on their views on abortion alone. I do believe in some socialistic principles, but I also believe in Capitalism, and would prefer a healthy mix of the two. I wonder, what would Christ think about your opposition to "redistributing the wealth"? Would he be happy that you're gungho about being pro-life, but then after the baby is born, all the issues you've brought up are about money? You expect people to have a baby no matter what, but you don't support any assistance programs that might help them after they have the baby?

To me, it's ridiculous that we as a country are arguing about personhood for a stupid fetus when we can't even take care of the people who've already been born. People don't want to pay for health care for those who can't afford it, people don't even want to pay for food and shelter for them. I'm not going to support a party or an ideology that's going to tell a woman she can't control her own body, that she MUST have a baby if she gets pregnant and will then give her the finger and tell her she's on her own after the baby is born.

No thanks, I'll stay over here and put up with being called a socialist, a *******, someone who supports murder, and every other slight you can think of. I'd much prefer that tto an ideology that has it's priorities arse-backwards.

 

The fact is that the woman is a person under the Constitution of the United States and she has protected Rights. A zygote, embryo and/or fetus is not a person and has no protected Rights under the US Constitution but the States do have an interest in protecting the potential personhood that a zygote, embryo and/or fetus represents. In protecting the "States interest" in the potential personhood some infringements were provided for under the Supreme Court decision in Roe v Wade. They were unquestionably an infringement upon the Rights of the woman but they were reasonable as the woman retained her Rights prior to the viability of the fetus.

Too many let their emotions on this issue to run wild and they seek to be tyrannical in denying the woman any of her Rights as opposed to seeking reasonable infringement upon them. The Woman has Rights and those must be respected first and foremost because she's a person with Constitutionally protected Rights. Until the anti-abortionists step back and acknowledge and accomodate the Rights of the Woman their arguments will always fail.

 

You would love that wouldn't you? No way…not as long as I have breath in my body. I am going to stand up for what is right. And if abortion was that right…you would not have to defend it. People know that it is immoral…it is wrong…it is inhumane…but they are content to do nothing. Even those on your side say…wow its a tough call…a tough decision. Why? Why is it so tough if it is so so right?

Is there something wrong with abortion Makedde? So sad that you are one who looks away. What else do you look away from? I can only imagine.

 

Shiva said,

it's funny but before Roe…the unborn had rights. And today…it still has rights….they are just not recognized. Scott Peterson…was not only convicted of one death but two. He is sitting on death row….because of how many lives did he take? The state recognized…that potential life you call nothing. It is against the law to harm a fetus….that is if you do it yourself or to another. BUT…..if ya hire it done…its cool.

So the state does recognize the life in the womb. Or abortion would be legal throughout the entire nine months. That should make you so upset…the fact that a woman does not have the right to kill even in the ninth month. Especially like you say….the Constitution does not recognize the life at all in the womb. LMAO

Or does it? I think you know and won't admit it because you just like the thought of killing innocent unborn babies.

Oh please….this shows that you love abortion…that you think that which the abortionist kills is nothing. This shows your heart.

Why aren't you working to make abortion legal throughout the entire nine months? This must devastate you….right?

The argument only fails when your talking to an enemy that does not value life…because to them….killing is a celebration of rights. They wear it proudly. KILL THE UNBORN….SACRIFICE…..IS WONDERFUL.

YEA KILLING SOLVES PROBLEMS…..and boy your side seems to have a lot of them. You would know that but like I said it involves the heart…and that is something the pro-choice side lacks…..HEART.

 

Junkieturtle said,

ABsolutely. As I said we are as different as night and day…no common ground whatsoever and it all stems from this issue. LIFE.

You want to think better of your moral positions….I don't see it that way. You condone killing to solve a problem. And that which is killed in this case is an innocent human life…that the mother created by taking the risk to have sex. Your position is not about doing what is moral and right…your position is all about doing what is easy and quick.

The reality is that I do not respect your position on life…and you can't take that anyone would reject you based on this. That is reality. We are nothing alike…not on any level.

This issue is emotional…so is rape and pedophelia…and murder. Do you even have any? Emotions that is? Do you ever feel bad about anything other than things that affect yourself? You can't understand how someone feels that is sickened by the thought of an abortionist tearing apart a human life. That is what is sad Junkie. But you can't see it. You have no emotion on this. LOL

I am emotional about thinks I find immoral. Like kids bullying other kids…elderly who are left alone….animals abuse….etc, etc. You bet. I have a heart.

But I also read about what science says about life. And its not on your side. Even science has a heart about this…why don't you?

Your statement here makes me sick. Literally. This is why I believe we are living in such a fallen world that there is no hope. We have gone to far. Peace will never be when we have or when we get to the majority of the population thinking the way you do about life and preserving it. You simply do not value life…no respect for how it was created or how it might be born.

Don't tell me I don't give. I give 20 % of my salary to my church for the poor. I support a child Adabe in Africa. I donate time to help women at CPC. I work at Right to Life. What the heck do you do other than debate why abortion is wonderful that the fetus is STUPID. The arrogance of your statements is sickening.

And about Jesus…..Jesus was not about forcing people to do anything. He was about free will. It does not count if you give to the poor because you have too. It is about doing what is right and good….and doing it cheerfully and willingly because YOU WANT TO DO IT. Not because THE GOVERNMENT FORCES YOU TO DO IT. Jesus was about personal responsibility. And abortion is not being responsible….especially when Jesus is the creator and we are to love and respect not only our bodies but life. We should give God praise for life. You do the opposite..you laugh at it like its some joke.

There were many rich men whom God blessed in the bible. In fact JOb…he gave
double what he had. Double the riches, double the children…that were taken away. He loved Lazarus. Mary and her sister Martha were also rich as was King David and Zacchaeus. Thank the world for rich people…especially when it allows them to help the poor. Without the huge companies….where would people work? The successful business owner….who employs people to work.

I am blessed to be financial ok right now…and because of that…I can give. Not because I am forced but because I am able and want to give.

ARe you jealous of people with money Junkie? I have what I need and live ok…but I am not jealous of those with big fancy cars and homes. God has given me what I need what he thinks I should have. And I thank Him that…it is enough to help people as well.

Interesting article about who gives.

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers

God does not hate the rich. He hates people who put money above Him. Who don't help the poor because they WANT TOO. Jesus was a socialist.

 

The Right is the Individual Right of Sovereignty of the Woman which includes her Right over every cell in her body.

Is the argument being presented that a Woman does not have the Right over her own body? Not a single cell in a zygote, embryo of fetus originated on it's own and every one of those cells belongs to the woman. By Right of Property she owns those cells and no one else does.

The arguments that the government has any say whatsoever related to a person's body are far more extreme than the arguments for "Obamacare" where the government has a right to determine how we spend our money. At least "Obamacare" is just a violation of Property Rights but the government telling a person what they can or can't do with their own body is a violation of Individual Sovereignty far worse than the government simply taking our property away.

If our Individual Sovereignty can be violated by the government under the law then we literally have no Rights at all.

 

guess that works both ways, would you would not have to defend your position if it was the right one

 

Junkieturtle said,

How about school vouchers. LOL I am for them. How about legalizing prostitution? I am against it. Legalizing drugs? Euthanasia? Embyonic stem cell research?

I bet you are for all of those.

Of course you don't because you are pro-killing the unborn. And that is why we are opposite.

"Rape, pedophilia, and murder all take the rights away from the victim. These are not just emotional issues. All those acts violate something I consider to be sacred, which is the right of any sentient being to be free from harm by others. Children are not consenting to disgusting acts by pedophiles, women(and those cases where the victim is a man) are not consenting to rape, in fact, rape is a crime directly because consent was NOT given. And murder, same deal. Like I said, we likely agree on more than you think."

How sad that you do not see that life that has been hired to kill as a victim. AGain why we are opposite. We are like I said nothing alike and I take pride in that…sorry.

Sanger would have said….kill your kid it is a burden on society. Only the fit survive and when all else fails….killing is the answer. I feel for ya…..but playing devils advocate here……..don't kids have a right to say what they feel? I mean kids will be kids…its natural…no wrong no right. Those kids might have baggage that you don't know…in that case….what you might say back to them might be wrong.

Its all the talk now…..bullying. Kids have done this since the beginning of time. Has to be put into perspective don't you think?

Well…….when does it automatically become a person? LOL Tell me the exact time…when it was nothing…then became something. What does science say about that? It says nothing…..people do when they make up based on their bias…when they think it happens. Science says there is sex….sex can happen…but does not say whether rape is wrong or not does it? So is rape right or wrong? Its both, right? That is what you said in an earlier post. If science does not say the fetus is a person….ok lets run with that….and science does not say rape is wrong…..then rape can be right….just like you say abortion can be right.

No I don't. You are a pro-choice/abort person….own it. You like others do not like the label. The label fits your position on life however.

Prejudiced? No I am not a racist…I love all colors and nationalities. But I believe something that you don't…..the value of life at any stage. That you don't appreciate. I can only wonder what you thought with your own children….what you might have felt had your wife said….its only been one month but I am getting an abortion. Would you have said…..great honey…its ok its your body and its NOTHING YET…GO AHEAD. Nothing potential in your womb honey...

You say I put things in your mouth…right here you do the same to me. I do nothing eh? You are not worth the time it takes post after post to….address this. I don't want to be like you…..I run the other way…I thank God for my conscience and my soul…and my life. I am proud to stand up for the unborn, proud. My position is not idiotic, yours is…and I really really think you know it underneath.

We can still help mothers who choose life for their babies…..and I do that.

What do you do?


"In this case, I truly believe the ends justify the means. If someone is hungry and you put a plate of food in front of them, I doubt they are going to care where it came from and whether the people who paid for it did so because they believed in it or because they paid their taxes. Jesus spoke quite a bit about material possessions and wealth, so it always strikes me as silly when religious people oppose programs that help the poor and needy, unless it's through their church. Then it's okay."

No one should be forced to give money unless its taxes to the government for the basic maintenance of our country. I do not owe anyone money for their housing…food….education….and certainly not their abortions. I GIVE I HELP BECAUSE I WANT TOO AND I DO THIS FREELY.

My generosity comes from my heart…..i give not because I have to or am forced…..BUT BECAUSE I LOVE THE LORD AND WANT TO BE LIKE HIM…IN ALL WAYS. He would overturn the abortion tables today, not just the tax collectors tables…and he would look at you with disgust…for your position on his creation.

There is nothing wrong with giving money to the church…..the church body helps more people than you ever could imagine. You would see this….but your hatred for people of faith prevents you from doing so.

Wow she saves lives……wonder if she has been a part in killing them by abortion? If you want to pay higher taxes then do it. But don't force me. I would rather give to an organization that I know will put the money to good use…than the government which I believe is made up of corrupt people on both sides.

WEll you have too much…and you should sell most of it and give to the illegals coming into the country who want a better life. You don't need a house…go rent. And get a bike and give your car away.

God hates sin…it is the opposite of His nature.

 

Prostitution is legal in Nevada. If more states want it to be legal and vote that way, I honestly don't care. It's the world's oldest profession and it's going to happen regardless, and has been happening regardless of any religion for thousands and thousands of years. You might as well try to outlaw breathing. I don't believe in legalizing drugs. Euthanasia should be the right of any being, and it's completely and utterly ridiculous to not use embryonic stem cells for research when that research could save millions of lives.

After it's born.

Science does not say anything is wrong, and I don't base my morality off science, because science has no morality. It's a study of facts and information, not what opinions you choose to have based on that information. So, science has no position on rape, other than maybe a medical one that would tell you it can be traumatic for the rape victims body. MY position on rape I have already stated many times. Let this be the end-all-be-all. I believe rape is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong because it takes the choice away from the victim.

If she had said that, I would have listened. I may not have agreed but I wouldn't have been under any false impressions that I had a say in what happens to her own body. Again, her having an abortion would not have made me happy, but it is her body and her choice. Not mine. Not ever.

I did not put words in your mouth. You have commented several times that you do not support any type of public assistance programs, only private assistance programs, but those have never once been able to meet even half the need of this country. You see, I believe we have a responsibility to care for all of our citizens whether we choose to donate money or not. That's right. I believe it's a responsibility you have just for being an American. It's funny hearing you say that we should only care about born life if we choose to. Isn't that what I'm doing, only for a fetus instead of a walking talking person?

I never said there was, I only meant that it was the only place you thought it was okay to spend money on poor people.

I am not forcing you to do anything, I do not have that power. You have the same influence on government as I do.

You first. I never said anyone should have to do that. But paying a few extra bucks a year in taxes is hardly asking people to give up their worldly possessions and live in poverty.

 

Junkieturtle said,

First of all its not totally legal in Nevada. They have a few regulated whore houses…were it is legal…but done outside these…its illegal. You hire a girl to come to your room at Caesars Palace….its illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada


"Science does not say anything is wrong, and I don't base my morality off science, because science has no morality. It's a study of facts and information, not what opinions you choose to have based on that information. So, science has no position on rape, other than maybe a medical one that would tell you it can be traumatic for the rape victims body. MY position on rape I have already stated many times. Let this be the end-all-be-all. I believe rape is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong. It is wrong because it takes the choice away from the victim."

I don't know quite frankly where your morality comes from…it must change with the wind. Traumatic for the rape victims body? Yea ok….just a little roughhousing…maybe. No right no wrong.

LMAO……..it is wrong to take the choice away…..AND YET YOU CONDONE KILLING ANOTHER HUMANS LIFE….YOU TAKE THEIR CHOICE AWAY.

I mean how hypocritical is your line of thinking. Wow……can't you seriously see this?

I do for the handicapped and mentally disabled.

You don't want my morality forced on people in this case abortion…..BUT YOU WANT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO SUPPORT PEOPLE THEY DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT. LMAO

YOU ARE NOT FOR FREEDOM….not with comments like you make.

Then you pay for me why don't you? But you don't have the right to take what is not yours. You say you can't deny the woman her freedom…yet you want to force me to pay for people I should not be obligated to pay for. I give and I know in my heart that I do good for people. The government is corrupt and I do not want them controlling my money any more than they do now. The people that are screaming for higher taxes…are the rich elites…who would never redistribute their personal wealth…they want the middle class to do that. And people are just stupid enough to fall for it. Pay a few extra dollars…no thank you we pay enough already. You want to pay more than add it with the taxes you owe…and pat yourself on the back. Obama is an illegal elite…and that is how he pictures himself. And in time…whether its 20, 30..100 years…his birth certificate will be exposed like the fraudulent document that it is. One that has been layered and falsified. Our first president who was not born in the United States…that duped the suckers that put their faith and trust in him….Barack Hussein. WE are stupid in America aren't we?

 

Okay, I wasn't aware of the nuance on the prostitution laws, but it doesn't matter to me really. The government would never be able to regulate prostitution because there's no way to track cash transactions. I'd much rather see it legal and somewhat regulated so there can be a degree of safety and a standard of health involved. Honestly though, it doesn't affect me either way because I'm married, and I doubt I'd ever pay for sex even if I wasn't.

A fetus has no choice because it has no brain function capable of making any choices whatsoever. It does not have a personality, feelings, emotions, memories, and any of the other things that makes a person more than just a biological human being. There is a difference. A human is a human, a person is unique. I don't believe those things because I am pro-choice, I am pro-choice because I believe those things.

Abortion doesn't hurt other people. Poverty, sickness, and hunger do. Those people are already here. They actually do have all the qualities I mentioned above.

I am not taking what isn't mine. What you owe in taxes isn't yours, just like it's not mine, or the next person's. It's just like rent in a building. That rent you pay your landlord isn't your money, it's what you owe for living there. You can choose not to live there, just like you can choose not to live in the U.S., but you're going to be hard pressed to find a country that isn't going to tax you.

And if you want to believe all that claptrap about birth certificates and being a Muslim, that is your right, but you're allowing yourself to be deliberately misled because of your own bias and dislike of Mr. Obama.

 

This is awful news in my opinion, most women that have abortions do not have the means to raise a human which would set them up to an underprivileged life, Abortion can also be helpful with the worlds rapid human population growth which should be frightening to anyone with the common sense that the world has limited resources. I think most people generally agree with these statements but many will cry about the morality of abortion. However, I can't see how anyone could consider stopping a cluster of cells with no developed conscious mind from developing into a baby they cant support immoral. That, to me, sounds like the ethical thing to do and lets not forget the advances in medical science stem cells provide. Once a baby has developed a functioning mind, I can see the issue with abortion but if done in the early stages of pregnancy there is nothing at all immoral about abortion.