Question for gun controllers:

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by modernpaladin, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. eschaff

    eschaff Active Member

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    You did a much better job at getting my point across. Additionally, your statement above applies to most police officers also (which was kind of my original point also). Most police officers never draw their firearms in the line of duty, much less use them in a gun fight. Expecting them to always be cool and calm marksmen in those situations is beyond unreasonable. It's remarkable that most of them seem to be able to hold their ground and return fire much less actually hit anything.
     
  2. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    If you watch videos of police shootouts it drives the point home as well. Often times even at close distances bullets go all over the place as the result of adrenaline, surprise, and fear. Sometimes it's over quickly, sometimes it isn't. This is actually one aspect that Hollywood is way more accurate on than people realize. It's always the running gag in action movies about how the guns have unlimited ammo and they always somehow miss. Well the seemingly always missing part is more true than people may think. Real world people are not John Wick.

    This is why many recommend against using pistols as home defense firearms and recommend rifles instead. It takes a lot more training and skill to become proficient with pistols over rifles or shotguns. Even in close quarters such as the home the odds of you missing your shots is way higher than many understand. Being able to steady yourself, aim, and accurately place shots with a pistol after being startled awake and full of adrenaline and fear and panic is a difficult task. Even myself who is professionally trained on pistols doesn't use one for home defense.
     
  3. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    I too have first hand experience, being raised in a constant state of life threat until my mid teens during which I experienced several life/death fights, being under fire, moments of believing death was both pending and inevitable, and where much of the training I received was the equivalent of ‘on the job training’. By my teens, the state of life threat was normal; I really knew nothing else.
    I would agree, no matter how well (or little you’ve) been trained (or your experience) you cannot predict perfectly what you or anyone will do in a given situation. I’ve seen the experienced freeze and I have seen NGs do amazing things and every combination in between.
    But, I do think the right kind of training can significantly improve your odds.
    I could spend considerable time on this topic, sharing my observations, my experience, my theories (really hypotheses), and what seems to happen in my mind, all of which I try to, as was done with me, share with others (particularly those I train) should something of my experience help someone else... still, there are no guarantees.
    You describe not being able to completely predict yourself... something I would say of me, but if you’ve the experience your post suggests, I would suggest, at a certain point there is developed a faster than conscious thought intuition that can drive action... something you can’t completely explain even after the fact. It’s evidence is only noted after the fact. Predicting what you will do in a given situation is often a resting thinking hope. But, if you’ve, been there, then one imperfect predictor of what you will do can often be stated more in terms of what you have done in the past. Adrenaline can be a major hindrance, but I found in some situations I had, in the retrospect, it enabled me to do things that would have thought near impossible...things I couldn’t repeat outside the moment.
    One statement you made that I completely agree with is your last paragraph. I have often wondered what it would have been like never having had experienced what I did, part of me wishing I never did, but not sure, on this side of things, I’d give up what has made me, well, me. But, I hope I never have such experiences again, nor any one else.

    Regarding training, why was the TOP Gun program started? Why has it been successful?
     
  4. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Of course do to my experience and training I would be better prepared for an actual gunfight if it were to ever happen, as would you based on your experience. I know how I react under fire because I've been in that situation numerous times, but the circumstances under which I was in those situations matters, as does my state of mind at the time. I have a completely different state of mind when in a combat zone vs eating lunch in a mall food court or something. In a combat zone my brain is always on alert for threats and ready to react instinctively at any given moment. While at home in society that part of my brain is turned off so would I have the same reflex instincts to leap into action if I was just sitting there eating a burger and shots started going off? I don't know, maybe? Or maybe I'd take off running then compose myself then come back, or maybe I'd just take off running and keep on going, or hit the floor, who knows?

    Obviously training does help and better prepares folks for stuff like that. I mean there's a reason we obviously put people through military training before they become Soldiers and we don't just grab random people off the street and send them to war the next day. But there are no guarantees as you said. It sure as hell didn't guarantee me my first time in a real fight. I endured months of training and even went to highly specialized training centers designed to simulate real world combat as best they could. First time a real mortar went off near me I nearly pissed myself and froze in sheer terror.

    After that day I was fine, something clicked in my brain and the instincts activated and I ran towards the gunfire and returned fire from then on out without hesitation or further issue. But that very first time? I was literally paralyzed with fear and I panicked when I came to the immediate realization that this is not a simulation and these people are literally trying to kill me...
     
  5. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    I understand the different states of mind when in known risk situations vs the 0-100 as you describe. When I first came to the US, it took a long time to adjust...not sure I really ever completely have. There is still that almost unconscious scan for threats. While I have developed a level of comfort in general, I am only fully relaxed at home, but anything unusual can switch on the scan. Even after all this time, I don’t like people I don’t know behind me, sit when out where I can observe everything, never like drinking much when out (I like control), still do unconscious inventory of exits and potential weapons in my immediate vicinity, always know my compass directions, and probably a lot of other unconscious things. I tend to be more relaxed when alone, less so when with family or friends because I feel a sense of duty toward their well being... the alone thing because I don’t worry about my safety, I guess. I think I can accept the prospect of being a victim more than I can of others.
    While I had several experiences when young (mostly knife fights....yeah lots stitches) I don’t remember my first life/death experience...all blurred together. But I can’t remember in those days of believing I was mortal...surprised, though, when I got injured. Having rounds fired at me, as I mentioned (I have been shot...but, didn’t know immediately) was a normal part of growing up, a sort of expected part of life and in a way, I can’t explain, almost like a game. But, the first time I had rockets hit near me, I think it made me want to crawl into nothing; it was the shock waves I experienced that would have scared crap out of me had I not be so puckered.
    I could relate experiences where I have moved toward trouble, but, in some situations I seem to have a recurring thing happen in my mind; I already accept I am about to die... there is a strange freedom in that I can’t describe. As I, and you, suggested....something I hope on no one.
    What worries me about me, is my tendency to draw a line if pushed or I see someone being victimized and basically think ‘f*** y***’... probably get me killed one day. I have worked long and hard at de escalation skills, but admit it challenging... getting better.
    BTW, one thing does help from time to time and that is talking to those with similar experiences.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
    Well Bonded likes this.

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