Raising the minimum wage is good for the economy.

I want my money in the stock market. Also known as "my retirement".

 

No mate it isn't.
I do not want money going to other people. I want it going to me.
I want as many of those jobs as possible for myself.

That is why I earn it. Not because I want everyone else to get their share of it, but to get mine.
And if you produce clothes locally and I buy them from you, you can spend that money in my pub. You can spend that money on food from my farm. You can hire me to deliver to you. To garden for you, to entertain you and to educate your kids. You can hire me to run your computers. To work in your factory.
You can reciprocate my trade.

It is not my goal to spread my resources around the world where I will never see them again.

The velocity of money I want to see is where it all velocorapts to me.
Same as everyone else.

Sharing my wealth with random Chinese people? Not really a goal in my life. Sorry but money is not so easy to get.

 

Incorrect. History says the same argument cannot be proven.

While we know in theory that raising the price of labour, does not raise the value of labour, we also know that there are a great many other factors involved in this relationship. That we can't take just one cause and effect in a complex system, and in a controlled environment prove it's economic relationship scientifically, because there is no controlled environment. There is not and will not ever be, an empiric proof for these theories.

Which unfortunately leaves room for the idiots to argue. Which they do and will always do.
And that is the history of this subject. A never ending debate.

Here is what I think. Accountancy tricks, don't produce anything extra.
They don't produce more resources to pay people with.

If you value a worker more, then pay him more. You do not need to government to tell you to do this. or even the complicity of their employers. Just tip them.

 

Every time minimum wage goes up soon thereafter GDP goes up, tax revenues go up, employment goes up. The only thing that goes down, albeit temporarily, is wealth accumulation at the top.
That's history. Sadly too many people have resigned themselves to the race to the bottom where American workers should not expect more than their Chinese counterparts. A Globalist's dream come true.
"We can't compete with the Japanese! " they cried.
"We can't compete with the Taiwanese!" they fretted.
"We can't compete with the Koreans!!!" they moaned.
Yet somehow they all raised up to be like us in the end and compete we do. But that has changed, The globalists have finally succeeded in convincing American workers that they have to lower themselves rather than the Chinese workers elevate themselvesbm
Many mansions were built during the great depression. Wealth didn't disappear, it was still there. Money didn't somehow evaporate. What happened is that money stopped circulating. Trump university taught there was money to be made off bankruptcies and that is true if you are wealthy enough. The great depression was a boon to the very rich as they bought wealth for 10 cents on the dollar. The uber rich do not fear a depression hey look forward to one, keeps the filthy masses in their place, begging for scraps.

 

So you don't buy anything Chinese?

By the way...what does any of that have to do with being against minimum wage increases?

 

Cause and effect?

The population is rising. Hence GDP is going up all the time.
Tax revenues are going up all the time. Employment is going up all the time.

Every time you raise minimum wage, That does not change.
That stronger dynamic still exists.

If I take a cup of water and throw it back up the water fall, it does not reverse the overall flow.

After minimum wage is raised, the sun still comes up in the morning. It's not the end of the world.
But minimum wage rises are not the reason the sun comes up.
They do not provoke it in any way.

What minimum wages have historically been matched by in all countries that have adopted one, is the outsourcing of working class jobs.
Manufacturing moving abroad. Migrant labour forces on our farms.

The other thing minimum wages provokes? Robotisation.
Cf Amazon.
They made a big public hoo har about the poor wages of Amazon shelf pickers.
And demanded that Amazon increase their wages.
But Amazon did not do that. The increase in labour costs simply made building robots to do the same work a viable alternative. Which what they did. Sack everyone and replace them with cheaper robots.
Own goal you lefty prats.


Real jobs lost. Jobs that no one here wants because they don't pay enough.

 

Bois was suggesting that a minimum wage rise makes everyone richer, by spreading the wealth around. Minimum wage workers could be expected to save less and spend more. Keeping the money flowing in the economy. Velocity.

Trickle down economics. The more you spend, the richer everyone gets.
The important part in this relationship however is not the "everyone" it is you. The more you spend on others the less you have for yourself.
I am not interested in the greater good of the global economy. Not working towards that lofty goal.
Only my economy.

I want an economy that works for me, and not that I work for.

And a trickle? That's not enough. I seek a strong and steady flow.

I am happy to buy Chinese. I am not happy to offer them minimum wages. I buy because they are cheap. Raise Chinese prices with a minimum wage, and you will not get them more money. Because I shall then buy from India.
All raising the minimum wage in China will do, is price them out of my market.
Close their factories. Cost them jobs.

 

do you know what the fallacy of circular logic is? A is true because A is true?

 

No, history says he is right. Seattle is just the most recent example.

I showed you the historical record for the 16-19 age cohort, the cohort most likely to have a minimum wage job. And every single time the minimum wage has been raised the unemployment rate of that cohort drops. EVERY SINGLE TIME!

It's too coincidental to be coincidence as Yogi Berra said.

Edit: the unemployment rate SPIKES!

 

You *can* find local butcher shops although they get more scarce every year. That money stays local. And you can buy your clothes at a second-hand store, that's what we do. That money stays local.

Just a couple of small examples!

 

Here is the record of unemployment for the 16-19 year old cohort in the US since 1950. Every single time there has been a minimum wage increase the unemployment rate for this cohort spikes. Since the 16-19 age cohort is the one most likely to have a minimum wage job this is pretty good proof of a causal link, not just a correlative one.


The big spike at 2008-2015 can be explained by the Great Recession. There was no national minimum wage hike then.

 

Sorry, employment does *NOT* go up with a minimum wage increase.

This is the unemployment rate for the 16-19 age cohort. Every time we have a minimum wage increase the unemployment rate for hat age cohort spikes.

 

Yes, of course you can find those things. The problem is that they are getting scarcer, which means something is wrong. A healthy economy would see more people participating in that velocity bois darc chunk says is needed.

A good anecdote is where I get my gas. I go to a local place that is more expensive than a ten minute drive away. The difference between the two gas stations is that I know the owners. Their kids went to school with my kids. We both participated in the PTA, we both participate in the local community. I give them my business because that keeps the money in our community because there is a community bond between us. I buy my beer from the local store for the same reasons. We help each other, and in turn, that helps the community.

The problem, of course, is that this sort of thing is generally not reciprocated. People just don't have that sense of responsibility to their own neighbors to spend a bit more to help each other, so you get what I described which is the velocity is the fastest course there is from my wallet to some foreign country. I can't really blame people because we're all trying to make ends meet, but the reason the ends aren't meeting is because it isn't reciprocated.

It's not about the fiat currency we use or how much we have, but rather the goods and services we produce through our labor, and who benefits from that labor. Some banker in China or my neighbors? More often than not, it's some chinese banker and a few longshoremen who I don't know. So talking about how the middle class needs more money so that we can spend more is not addressing the problem. It's just exasperating it, if anything. Give us more and all that happens is more money in foreign banks.

 

This is one reason we resist using Amazon et al as much as we can and continue to shop locally.

Of course, to me there is nothing like going to the local hardware store to actually feel a tool before I buy it! My wife can't understand it. Of course I've never figured out how she can go to the local jeweler and look at *every* single piece on display or can look at every single piece of clothing on the rack at Goodwill!

 

Every state in the union allows LLCs. What barriers to essential conditions of worker co-ops exists in LLC law?

 

Where is your documentation?

https://www.mises.org/library/minimum-wage-minimum-tax

 

*sigh* Apparently, we have a communication gap. I'll try this once more, and then I am leaving it alone.

Yes, creating jobs is one way to get money into the hands of the people, but most people already have jobs, though. We're near full employment. The jobs that too many people have don't pay enough at the level necessary to sustain our economic growth. So, either those jobs pay more and keep the economy afloat, or the government has to step in and provide jobs. Business is already doing what it wants to do. Business does not lack capital. Investors only take risks when they believe those risks will pay off.

Capital investment is not an efficient means of stimulating growth in a long-term, sluggish economy, like we have. Older companies shed jobs with further capital investment, as shown in the link I cited for you. While there is some evidence of job creation with start up/new businesses, half of them go out of business within five years, displacing those they employed. Unless investors are wiling to take the high risk of opening many, many, many new businesses, knowing half will fail, in order to get the number of needed high paying jobs, capital investment is not going to improve an economy in the doldrums. If it was a good risk, investors would have already done that, but instead are sitting on their capital, to the tune of $50Trillion. There's the counter to your Scrooge McDuck argument. Yes, investors are sitting on their money.

OTOH, injections of cash do grow the economy. However, a one-time stimulus injection of cash only provides temporary growth. Sustained growth requires sustained spending. Sustained spending requires sustained disposable income. Maintaining a certain level of disposable income requires periodic raises that outpace inflation. We have had near zero inflation since at least 2011, if not longer, but salaries have dropped in that time. Real wages are 1.2% behind where they were in 2009. People cannot buy more with less money… and spending drives the economy, not capital investment. Our jobs are not paying the employee the value of their work. Productivity, profits, and the stock market are at all time highs. But, the people haven't gotten raises commensurate to the productivity and profits. The CEOs have. Since business isn't going to raise their costs unless made to do so, raising the minimum wage is a place to start. If that doesn't provide enough velocity to improve the economy, the next step is for the government to create jobs through deficit spending for infrastructure, other needs, or war. We're a war weary country, and the wars we've been in have not provided new technology, or alternative uses for products created for war, that might provide many new high paying jobs.

We either grow our economy to a healthy 2.5-3% growth rate, or we seriously risk deflation. We were at serious risk of deflation when the FED dropped interest rates to zero. We're still very close to zero interest rates, so the FED has nowhere to cut with their monetary policies, in an effort to move the economy. Unless something is done, we are expected to remain in low growth through 2050, at least.

We need low inflation, high growth, and velocity through demand, to get out of the economic problems we are experiencing. We already have low inflation. We need more demand and velocity, and that requires higher salaries, not higher levels income inequality. We are on the path of growing our income inequality, so that trend has to be reversed.

 

Yes, of course that would be the kind of velocity we want. However, we're now in a situation where too many people don't have the $100 to give the daughter to spend. We lack demand as well as velocity.

 

It's not "circular logic". Did you even read the linked post????? Let me type this slowly.... If you want an answer on LLCs, corporate law, and WSDEs, READ THE WRITE-UPS ABOUT THE NEW LAWS.

 

I responded to that in the post to which you are replying here!! If you are actually interested in that and want an answer, READ THE WRITE-UPS ABOUT THE NEW LAWS. I gave you a collection of links but I have a little difficulty pouring the information into your head. YOU have to read it.

 

tax rates and regulations have nothing to do with hiring or firing. businesses hire or fire based on need to increase or decrease production.

Basic economics.

 

I read them. They don't address the fact that any group of people may currently establish an LLC and run it as a WSDE.

 

Well, while reading through them earlier this week I noticed statements that the new law provided for specific solutions to problems associated with the establishment of WSDEs which the existing state law did not address favorably.

The bottom line for me is that while new laws were obviously written and passed to address recognized needs, you take the bogus way out of declaring that states pass unnecessary laws all the time. I wish you would give one example of that because it sounds ridiculous to me. That would say that inadequate research is done regarding existing laws that may conflict or agree with new proposals.

Your position means you can invent a story to oppose anything just by word-smithing and thereby stop any debate cold.

 

My position is that if today you want to start a WSDE in any state in the union you can do so right now by establishing it as an LLC, which is an organizational form recognized in every state.

 

@Bois.
Workers rate of pay does not sustain economic growth. The work they do, sustains economic growth. The price you arbitrarily attach to that work, the number you score it... doesn't create any economic growth. The only growth that creates is the growth of your own value system over the value system society currently uses. Which is market led. People vote with their wallets on each and every individual transaction.

Using a minimum wage, you get to say who's labour is worth what price, and not the people who are actually involved. It's about power. It's not about money for the poor.
It's about mummy knowing best what's right for everyone. It's about being in control.
And that is all this really is, an attempt by people in power to bribe the working class into voting for them. It's not an economic solution to anything. It's a political solution for a bunch of folks who wish to get elected.



Economic growth is pretty much assured by increases in population. What that won't assure however is a growth in GDP per capita. Personal economic growth.

Why do you want economic growth?
Why is this such a dogma for you?

I don't want to endlessly grow my economy forever. I want to get enough, and then chill out and enjoy my life.
The purpose of going to work is to get enough to stop going to work. Not to make more work for every one.