Ranked Vote: What To Do To Reduce Partisan Dysfunction In Politics?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Meta777, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Winner: Pass Balanced Budget Amendment!
    (click for detailed results)


    Ranked Vote: Discussion Thread

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I know this is the one a few of you have been waiting for, for anyone new, this thread is a continuation of a series of threads geared towards taking issues, coming up with a broad range of potential solutions to them, and voting on which of those solutions are the best, using ranked methods for tallying the votes:
    Ranked Vote: Discussion Thread (includes schedule)
    What To Do To Reduce Partisan Dysfunction In Politics
    Solutions Oriented Approach to Restoring Meaningful Civil Discourse

    This thread will cover what we should be doing to heal the deep divide that has developed within our political system over the years, namely in government, but to include as well the current political divide between American citizens more broadly.
    The associated discussion thread can be found here:
    What To Do To Reduce Partisan Dysfunction In Politics

    They're Really Going At It!...
    [​IMG]
    ...maybe just a little too much...

    Politics are meant to be at least a bit adversarial. But the basic idea of a democratically elected government is supposed to be that in the end, despite our differences, we should be able to find ways to work together and find meaningful solutions to our various societal problems which we can mostly all agree on or at least find acceptable. To cooperate and find compromise in other words.

    But it seems that the current political divide has become too great. Politicians in congress have gotten so far apart from each-other that they can no longer work together to fix many of the issues we need them to. They seem to spend more time hating on the other side than anything else. And as a result, we the American people have come to hate them. For the younger generations this may seem to be the normal state of things, because its been going that way for a while, increasing evermore over time...is there even any such thing as a congressional moderate anymore, or have the last handful finally been cannibalized...where is middle America's representation in all this???

    Whatever the case, it would be unwise and unhealthy for us to allow this trend to continue without taking steps to reverse it. Unfortunately though, the very polarization we see in our politicians has also rubbed off onto the general populous. Bringing America back together wont be easy, but it should not however be thought to be impossible. All we need is to really take a good hard look at the issue/the factors leading to it, and seriously consider what we can do to improve things. The current list of suggested solutions is as follows (click links for additional details, you don't have to read them all, they're just there if you want too):

    What To Do To Reduce Partisan Dysfunction In Politics?:
    A. Replace Plurality Voting With Instant Runoff (A Form of Ranked Choice Voting)
    B. Replace Plurality Voting With Ranked Pairs (A Form of Ranked Choice Voting)
    C. Replace Plurality Voting With Approval Voting

    D. Split into Two Separate Countries
    E. Split into Fifty Separate Countries
    F. Replace Plurality Voting With Jungle Primaries Plus Top Two Runoff
    G. Grant All of State Electoral Votes to Candidate Who Wins >50% of State Votes

    H. Do Away With Legislation And Live In a Society of Judges Without Presidents Legislators or Written Laws
    I. Have Schools Teach a 10th Grade Class on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
    J. Put More Emphasis on Teaching Kids Critical Thinking skills and About Logical Fallacies Data Analysis and Statistics
    K. Teach Our Kids About Propaganda Advertising Demographics and Their Effect on a Population
    L. Teach Kids More History and Teach and Involve Them More in Civics and Debate
    M. Expose Kids to Controversial Ideas Early On
    N. Make Sure that the More Viable Third Party Candidates Get Included in Debates

    O. Commence Warfare
    P. Reinstate Fairness Doctrine/Equal Time Rule for the Media
    Q. Switch to Single Transferable Vote for Congressional Elections (A Form of Ranked Voting)
    R. Update Redistricting Process With Fair Algorithm Leading to More Competitive Races [1][2][3]
    S. Require Congressional Districts to Meet a Complexity Ratio Standard
    T. Require Congressional Districts to Meet a Proportionality Ratio Standard

    U. Teach Children the Benefits of Compromising
    V. Eliminate Political Parties + Restrict Campaign Funding to Local Sources
    W. Three-Term Term Limits For House Members (6 Years)
    X. Repeal 17th Amendment/Elect Senators Via State Legislatures

    Y. Repeal 16th Amendment/Tax States Instead of Individuals for Federal Revenue
    Z. Pass Balanced Budget Amendment
    #. Allow Things to Continue On As They Are Uninterrupted (Status Quo Option)
    $. Don't Feel Qualified/Knowledgeable Enough To Vote In This Poll
    &. No Strong Feelings One Way Or The Other
    To start things off, there will be a nomination phase whereby suggestions can be made within this thread for things which should be added to the list before the vote starts. I'll be leaving the thread open for nominations through the end of (6/16) so if there's something you think really ought to be included in the list, make sure to post it here before the end of tomorrow.

    Once the voting phase begins, voting will run through Friday (6/29).

    Also, for veterans of the Ranked Vote series, you may have noticed that I added some additional 'standard' options to the list alongside the status quo option this time around. Those are there just to hopefully give us all a fuller view of what political forum members are feeling in relation to the issue. Once letters are assigned to them, everyone should feel free to put down one of those options as their only vote assuming it fits...or even add them into your ranking somewhere if you'd like.

    To participate in this vote, simply follow the following three steps:

    1. If you have an idea which isn't in the list, post it in the thread between now through tomorrow.
    2. Wait for me to edit the above list of options. The ?? s will be replaced with lettered labels by (6/17).
    3. After letters have been added to the above options list,
    cast your ballot by making a post with a list of those letters sorted in your order of preference.

    (you don't have to include them all, but including more gives your vote more chance to have an impact)
    B, C, D, F, H, M

    B. Automation-Induced Job-Loss
    C. Unemployment and Underemployment in General
    D. Partisan Dysfunction in Congress
    F. Too Many Restrictions on Abortion
    H. Too Much Gun Violence
    M. Global Warming
    (Also, please do actually post the letters when you vote, it really helps a lot. Thanks!)

    [​IMG]

    -Meta
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  2. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Now I want to kick us off by nominating a few ideas that came up in the Gerrymandering threads.
    I think these are also applicable here.

    -Switch to Single Transferable Vote for Congressional Elections (A Form of Ranked Voting)
    -Update Redistricting Process With Fair Algorithm Leading to More Competitive Races [1][2][3]
    -Require Congressional Districts to Meet a Complexity Ratio Standard
    -Require Congressional Districts to Meet a Proportionality Ratio Standard


    Making things less partisan may not have been the intention behind the ideas, but I do believe that it is a useful side effect worth considering when looking at ways to decrease partisanship in congress and elsewhere.

    -Meta
     
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  4. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    I am going to nominate "Teach Children the Benefits of Compromising" as a means to reduce partisan dysfunction in politics.

    We have partisan dysfunction today because the concept of compromising has been denigrated to the point where it is a synonym for surrender when it comes to politics. That is patently absurd but it is a symptom of our dysfunction that we are redefining terminology.

    By teaching children that compromising is an appropriate means to achieve goals when there are competing interests we stand a much better chance of NOT having the current situation reoccur in the future. Compromising is something that ADULTS do all the time in their personal and professional lives. Successful long term relationships are based upon compromise. Finding a cost effective solution is a compromise. Buying a vehicle is a compromise between affordability versus extravagance, practicality versus performance, fuel mileage versus capacity. Adults make all kinds of compromises on a daily basis on matters both large and small.

    Learning to compromise and understanding what is gained in exchange for what is conceded is a core aspect of learning to become a functioning and contributing adult in our society so teaching it in schools should be a part of the curriculum IMO.
     
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  5. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    1. Eliminate political parties and restrict campaign funding to be provided only by residents of the area to be represented by each candidate.
    2. Perhaps 50 countries would be a better solution in the long run?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
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  6. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Great nomination! You're right, we have to compromise in our personal lives every day. Its silly to think that compromise should suddenly become a dirty word whenever other people get involved. Compromise should be just as valued a tool for us in politics as it is anywhere else, and maybe even more-so. When you have a nation of hundreds of millions of people, and state and federal governments that have to try and cater to the needs and wants of all of them, disagreements will be inevitable. And finding non-violent ways to resolve such disagreements is what compromise is all about. So glad that you nominated this, and added to the list. Important nominations like these are why I keep the nomination phase of these votes around.

    -Meta
     
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  7. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Meta, I think there are two measures that would reduce partisan dysfunction in our politics, and they both have to do with reforming Congress.

    Term limits on members of the House, perhaps 6 years (3 terms). This would change the motive for serving in Congress. The members would have this relatively short period of their lives where they could make a difference and actually do something for the country. And if they wanted to actually do something, they would have to work with the other side and find compromises.

    Second, a repeal of the 17th Amendment, returning the selection of members of the Senate to state legislatures. This would make the Senators beholden only to their state legislature, a body one step removed from the people themselves. They would no longer be able to be influenced by outside lobbyists and campaign donors. They also would not be obligated to a particular party's platform even though they were a member of that party. They would not be beholden to the wishes of party leaders in the Senate either. Their sole "boss" would be the people of the their state as represented in their state legislature.

    Seth
     
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  8. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    You know how the saying goes...united we stand, divided we fall. Eliminating the parties may work though...if only it were so easy. Restricting the funding sources sounds like it could be a goodun, though I think we'd need to be careful to ensure that popular grass-roots candidates from poor areas didn't get effectively shut out of the process as a result (public funding anyone?). Anyways, added both ideas to the list. Thanks!

    -Meta
     
  9. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    I would add repeal of the 16th amendment too, giving the people a voice in the House on spending and making the Senate responsible to the State for taxing required to pay their States portion.
     
  10. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I really like that idea of limiting the term limits. Lot's of good ideas coming through this thread. Make congress less of a career and more of a limited time opportunity to do some good for the country. Added these to the list.

    -Meta
     
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  11. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another thing that would force members of Congress to work cooperatively with each other would be a Balanced Budget Amendment.

    The ability of the government to spend more than it takes in allows members of Congress to have entrenched and intractable spending priorities with no need to compromise. A BBA would force them to come together like grown-ups and compromise with each other, and then Congress, R's and D's, would have to support the finished product. A majority "No" vote on the budget would cause a government shutdown, forcing Congress to work with each other and find the compromises that could get the "Yes" vote majority.
     
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  12. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    And the good ideas just keep on comin'. Added to the list!

    -Meta
     
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  13. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Oops, almost missed this one. Added to the list.
    But please check the wording on it. Thanks!

    -Meta
     
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  14. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey all, letters assigned and this thread is now open for voting.

    What To Do To Reduce Partisan Dysfunction In Politics?:

    A. Replace Plurality Voting With Instant Runoff (A Form of Ranked Choice Voting)
    B. Replace Plurality Voting With Ranked Pairs (A Form of Ranked Choice Voting)
    C. Replace Plurality Voting With Approval Voting

    D. Split into Two Separate Countries
    E. Split into Fifty Separate Countries
    F. Replace Plurality Voting With Jungle Primaries Plus Top Two Runoff
    G. Grant All of State Electoral Votes to Candidate Who Wins >50% of State Votes

    H. Do Away With Legislation And Live In a Society of Judges Without Presidents Legislators or Written Laws
    I. Have Schools Teach a 10th Grade Class on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
    J. Put More Emphasis on Teaching Kids Critical Thinking skills and About Logical Fallacies Data Analysis and Statistics
    K. Teach Our Kids About Propaganda Advertising Demographics and Their Effect on a Population
    L. Teach Kids More History and Teach and Involve Them More in Civics and Debate
    M. Expose Kids to Controversial Ideas Early On
    N. Make Sure that the More Viable Third Party Candidates Get Included in Debates

    O. Commence Warfare
    P. Reinstate Fairness Doctrine/Equal Time Rule for the Media
    Q. Switch to Single Transferable Vote for Congressional Elections (A Form of Ranked Voting)
    R. Update Redistricting Process With Fair Algorithm Leading to More Competitive Races [1][2][3]
    S. Require Congressional Districts to Meet a Complexity Ratio Standard
    T. Require Congressional Districts to Meet a Proportionality Ratio Standard

    U. Teach Children the Benefits of Compromising
    V. Eliminate Political Parties + Restrict Campaign Funding to Local Sources
    W. Three-Term Term Limits For House Members (6 Years)
    X. Repeal 17th Amendment/Elect Senators Via State Legislatures

    Y. Repeal 16th Amendment/Tax States Instead of Individuals for Federal Revenue
    Z. Pass Balanced Budget Amendment
    #. Allow Things to Continue On As They Are Uninterrupted (Status Quo Option)
    $. Don't Feel Qualified/Knowledgeable Enough To Vote In This Poll
    &. No Strong Feelings One Way Or The Other

    To vote here, all you need to do is list the options/their labels in order of preference,...
    You don't have to rank them all, but the more options ranked, the more chances your ballot has to impact the final results.
    To vote for anything not on the list, just add it into your rankings list as a "write-in".
    See example ballot below for reference on formatting:
    B, C, D, F, H, M

    B. Automation-Induced Job-Loss
    C. Unemployment and Underemployment in General
    D. Partisan Dysfunction in Congress
    F. Too Many Restrictions on Abortion
    H. Too Much Gun Violence
    M. Global Warming

    -Meta
     
  15. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    In order, Y,X,V,Z,G,D,E.
    Voter ID appears to not exist.
    I would have labeled the choices numerically beginning with 01, or for single digit labeling A-Z followed by a-z.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  16. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Compromise can be a good thing depending on the circumstances. When someone asks you to give up something with nothing but your continued existence in return it may not be so good, only necessary.
     
  17. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  18. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Here are my votes.

    U, Z, J, V, A, C, N, P, L, M, G, I, K, Q

    U. Teach Children the Benefits of Compromising
    Z. Pass Balanced Budget Amendment
    J. Put More Emphasis on Teaching Kids Critical Thinking skills and About Logical Fallacies Data Analysis and Statistics
    V. Eliminate Political Parties + Restrict Campaign Funding to Local Sources
    A. Replace Plurality Voting With Instant Runoff (A Form of Ranked Choice Voting)
    C. Replace Plurality Voting With Approval Voting

    N. Make Sure that the More Viable Third Party Candidates Get Included in Debates
    P. Reinstate Fairness Doctrine/Equal Time Rule for the Media
    L. Teach Kids More History and Teach and Involve Them More in Civics and Debate
    M. Expose Kids to Controversial Ideas Early On

    G. Grant All of State Electoral Votes to Candidate Who Wins >50% of State Votes
    I. Have Schools Teach a 10th Grade Class on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
    K. Teach Our Kids About Propaganda Advertising Demographics and Their Effect on a Population
    Q. Switch to Single Transferable Vote for Congressional Elections (A Form of Ranked Voting)
     
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  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    $. Don't Feel Qualified/Knowledgeable Enough To Vote In This Poll

    Is my basic answer but.......
    I believe that there is potential for Republicans to take several major steps toward
    some aspects of Liberalism....... which could have a similar effect over the short term.

    For example...... a G.O.P. representative could apply this idea:

    https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/christian-andreason.html#a11
    But..... could still back up President Trump on his idea that giving the Transexual community full rights to join the military and receive free sex change operations..... is going to far and does not fit with what near death experience Christian Andreason was shown.

    The President of Gays for Trump thinks the trans agenda may slow down Gay progress....


    Now this certainly sounds interesting:
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...sfunction-in-politics.529608/#post-1068884281
     
  20. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    For the longest time I was sort of on the fence when it came to choosing between Ranked Pairs and Instant Runoff. Instant Runoff has the simplicity going for it, while Ranked Pairs being a Condorcet method means that it essentially leads to 'perfect' results, i.e. the winner will always be the candidate who beats every other candidate 1 on 1 (assuming one exists). But, through these 'demonstration' votes I've finally been knocked off that fence and onto the side of Ranked Pairs because...well...its just better
    (not to say that Instant Runoff isn't still amazing compared to Plurality).

    As for other options in this vote, it was actually kind of difficult to decide where to place a few of them in my rankings. There are a bunch of good ones, and a lot of them are fairly close to one another, but I'm happy with what I came up with.
    So anyways,...here's my vote:

    B,A,U,J,N,M,L,P,K,F,C,Q,R,S,T,W,Z,V,X,I,G,Y,#,D,E,H

    B. Replace Plurality Voting With Ranked Pairs (A Form of Ranked Choice Voting)
    A. Replace Plurality Voting With Instant Runoff (A Form of Ranked Choice Voting)
    U. Teach Children the Benefits of Compromising
    J. Put More Emphasis on Teaching Kids Critical Thinking skills and About Logical Fallacies Data Analysis and Statistics
    N. Make Sure that the More Viable Third Party Candidates Get Included in Debates
    M. Expose Kids to Controversial Ideas Early On
    L. Teach Kids More History and Teach and Involve Them More in Civics and Debate
    P. Reinstate Fairness Doctrine/Equal Time Rule for the Media
    K. Teach Our Kids About Propaganda Advertising Demographics and Their Effect on a Population
    F. Replace Plurality Voting With Jungle Primaries Plus Top Two Runoff
    C. Replace Plurality Voting With Approval Voting
    Q. Switch to Single Transferable Vote for Congressional Elections (A Form of Ranked Voting)
    R. Update Redistricting Process With Fair Algorithm Leading to More Competitive Races [1][2][3]
    S. Require Congressional Districts to Meet a Complexity Ratio Standard
    T. Require Congressional Districts to Meet a Proportionality Ratio Standard
    W. Three-Term Term Limits For House Members (6 Years)
    Z. Pass Balanced Budget Amendment
    V. Eliminate Political Parties + Restrict Campaign Funding to Local Sources
    X. Repeal 17th Amendment/Elect Senators Via State Legislatures
    I. Have Schools Teach a 10th Grade Class on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
    G. Grant All of State Electoral Votes to Candidate Who Wins >50% of State Votes
    Y. Repeal 16th Amendment/Tax States Instead of Individuals for Federal Revenue
    #. Allow Things to Continue On As They Are Uninterrupted (Status Quo Option)
    D. Split into Two Separate Countries
    E. Split into Fifty Separate Countries
    H. Do Away With Legislation And Live In a Society of Judges Without Presidents Legislators or Written Laws
     
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  21. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks, I can put you down for,
    Y,X,V,Z,G,D,E,VoterID
    Although I'm not so sure how voter IDs would reduce partisanship.
    Just by giving folk more confidence in the results perhaps?...

    -Meta
     
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I think that having capital and then lower-case letters as option labels might cause confusion.

    The numbers might be better, although there's a couple reasons I don't go with them if I can help it.

    One reason is that I have an Excel macro/formula which automatically spits out all of the results for me.
    But the part for RP doesn't play nicely with numbered labels atm. I could easily get around that,
    and actually, did temporarily during a past vote where there were just so many options that
    I had to use both letters and numbers. Making a more permanent fix wouldn't be difficult,...

    ...But the other reason I choose letters instead, is again,...I want to avoid confusion as much as possible.
    I think numbers could cause some confusion in something like this. If I throw up a list of options with numbers next to them,
    someone might come in and think that they need to renumber the options or something in order to indicate their ranking,
    rather than reordering them. Using letters avoids that, and as an added benefit, there are more letters than there are
    single digit numbers. Yes, I do think that doing anything with double-digit stuff could cause confusion as well.

    A little silly, I know, but better safe than sorry.

    -Meta
     
  23. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    That wouldn't be such a bad thing, would it? Could even evolve into making Internet voting possible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  24. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Depending on how its implemented, no, its not necessarily a bad thing.
    Neither is internet voting...I actually think that would go a long ways to making voting easier/increasing turnout.
    ...though, again, I don't see how one leads to the other. How IDs reduce partisanship, or how they lead to internet voting.
    I mean....aren't IDs supposed to be a thing one shows when voting in person?? So why give IDs and then have folks stay at home voting from their computers? Not saying that either thing is bad or anything, just saying...it seems a little counter-intuitive.

    -Meta
     
  25. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    The voter ID would allow confirmation of a legal voter both in person and on the Internet, and disallow the same voter ID from casting multiple votes, and if the legal owner of the ID is told his/her ID has already been used, a fraud investigation leading to criminal charges could easily be initiated. But I don't see a need to debate the pros and cons of it at the moment. I'm more curious as to what the result of this thread will show.
     

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