Religious exemption from having photo on gun license? Really?

You're missing the point. No responsible, self-aware adult should ever be in a position where they are so thoroughly overwhelmed that they become paralyzed. THAT is the point. Choosing to live your life as a sheep means you will act like one when you are confronted by wolves, and refusing to acknowledge the realities of society is a choice far too many people make. Yes, at some point in people's lives they make a CHOICE whether they will accept responsibility for themselves or they won't.

In the Orlando nightclub, there were multiple opportunities for people to attack and overwhelm the gunman. No self-respecting person - straight, gay, whatever - should EVER just sit there, cowering and waiting to die. NO ONE. Yet an entire building full of people chose to throw their hands up in the air and act like the sheep that freeze and topple over at the first sign of unanticipated stimulus that are in videos all over youtube.

People who cower in place and never make even the most rudimentary effort to defend themselves are people who made a choice, at some point in life, to be helpless, and such a choice is, to me, utterly unconscionable.

 

In the moment of the attack.
The moments afterward are an entirely different story -- at this point, inaction is a conscious choice.

 

Stereotype of Gay people.
Bigotry against LGBT.
NEXT....

 

At what point is it "afterward?"

 

(Third time posting this)

I have included the definition of 'bigotry' below for your review. You can tell me in your reply how my post constitutes your revised understanding of 'bigotry.'

Bigotry:
intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.

 

So it sounds as though you are not saying that they had a choice in the moment because the only choice they could have made was the choice to be prepared.

unanticipated stimulus?

 

"At the moment of the attack".
"Afterward" is the point in time after "the moment of attack".

 

Bear with me; this might be a long response....

Actually, the way you're addressing this subject is indicative of what I'm talking about. I might be interpreting this incorrectly, and if so I apologize, but what I see is you defending these people for demonstrating a complete and utter inability to respond to a given situation. I'm saying that when you look at the circumstances of the Pulse nightclub shooting you see a far deeper and more disturbing reality illustrated. Again and again people were presented opportunities to act to preserve their own lives and again and again they chose to cower helplessly and just wait to die. This moves beyond something happening "in the moment", because this incident unfolded over many, many long minutes. The killer was halting his rampage again and again, making phone calls and social media updates and even at one point watching an internet video to figure out how to clear his jammed rifle....and NO ONE FOUGHT BACK. This is not about "in the moment" but about having a clear choice of whether to fight for survival or to lay back and die and they CHOSE TO DIE.

In training, they often talk about the concept of the "OODA Loop". It illustrates the process the human mind has to go through in responding to stimulus. It means: "Observe, Orient, Decide, Act"; You Observe something is happening, you Orient towards the stimulus, you Decide what you need to do, and you Act on that decision. Training does indeed use this to explain that even the most highly trained person, caught unawares, can, yes, freeze for a split second as their brain processes the information. With training you can bring that moment of indecision down to fractions of a second (highly trained people have demonstrated an ability to bypass reaction time, reacting instantly to the stimulus before their brain can process consciously), and a concept in tactical training is to then take aggressive initiative to get "inside the OODA loop" of an attacker and make HIM now have to react to YOU. Yes, I know we're talking about untrained people....untrained people who had long, painful minutes to make a choice about what to do; where they were no longer "in the moment" but had an eternity in which to decide what to do.... and they decided to do nothing. They made phone calls and sent texts to loved ones, stating their full and conscious knowledge that they were about to die...and they did nothing to so much as TRY to preserve their own lives.

You and others have made the statement that these people had no prior reason to believe they might need training and as such their inaction was "understandable." I reject that. Every day, the news is full of tales of innocent people being brutalized, and people cluck their tongues in distaste and say, "Oh, what a horrible thing. Those poor people..." They promptly dismiss any thought that such violence could ever touch them. That is a rationalization and - in my opinion - a choice they make to bury their heads in the sand. Worse, some parts of the country have a culture that tries to program people that any kind of violence - even righteous violence undertaken in defense of oneself - is wrong, and thus when faced with violence they recoil in horror at any thought of resorting to violence themselves even to preserve their own lives.

I'm sorry, but it is my firm opinion that we spend our entire lives making choices. We see different philosophies and mindsets and cultural values throughout our lives, and we make the choice about what elements of those factors we will incorporate into our own belief structure. When a self-aware human being reaches maturity encumbered by a worldview that makes them think it's okay to be utterly incapable of dealing with the realities of life, that is a choice they made at some point in their lives.

You've seen it, I'm sure. Someone rolls a ball in among a group of sheep, and they twitch, their limbs lock, and they topple over helplessly in shock. Some people think it's cute, or funny, but it's too close to what far too many people choose to do for me to see humor in it.

 

Well I didn't say "AT" though, I said "In." I'm referring to the entire attack.

 

See my comments above regarding the entire attack. Whether we speak of "at" the moment or "in" the moment is irrelevant when you're talking about something like that.

 

Anyone, at the moment of an attack, can freeze for an instant, regardless of how well trained, as it may take that long to process the information, asses the situation, and go from there.
After that moment, actions are deliberate; if you freeze, it is because you choose to.

 

Are you qualified to make that statement? Psychologists and other medical professionals would disagree with you. Certain people who are wired a certain way would not simply be able to choose to not go into psychological paralysis.

 

Well, my wife is trained in psychology, and she doesn't buy the "wired a certain way" when discussing this particular issue.

 

With the :"certain people" qualifier, you can make any point you choose - as such, the point you make is meaningless.
At some point, you choose your actions. Period.

 

So she would believe that children have the ability to choose not to go into paralysis if they see their parents murdered right in front of their eyes? If not, then she must place an age on when someone can start controlling this.

 

including a child?

 

Did you not read my earlier post?

"Children exposed to violence at a young age have different responses to that stimulus. Some children have responded to criminal assault quite effectively; even saving their own family through surprisingly effective actions. I was fortunate as a child to have grown up with the influence of capable people who sought to instill that capability in me early on, and I faced circumstances that might have turned out badly but because I was taught how to deal with certain things tragedy was avoided. Granted, how a child responds is directly linked to how the parents choose to raise them, and if the parents don't teach them the options available they will indeed have no choice but to freeze in terror at a situation they have not been given the tools to address. That is, however, the fault of the parents, and not a basis for an argument in favor of governmental policy that infringes upon people's rights. Adults ALWAYS have a choice of how to face life, and what risks they're going to prepare for. Sadly, too many make a poor choice."

The main point is that if the parents fail to introduce the idea of how to react to a crisis situation, then yes, children will freeze as they have not been given any option to react otherwise. Teach them options of how to respond, and they will react as they've been trained.

 

Moving the goalpost, eh?

 

During this entire debate, I've been CONSTANTLY talking about when people are NOT trained. Now you have admitted that a child will freeze without being taught options of how to respond (I'm assuming you are saying that they don't have a choice), but until what age does this apply?

 

And throughout this entire debate I've been CONSTANTLY talking about how there is no excuse whatsoever for people not to have at least some training! People should be teaching their children about certain realities of life right from the outset, but they instead leave their children ignorant and vulnerable and without the tools for coping with life in any substantive way, and they grow up to be helpless victims! Sheep, just waiting to be sheared.

You have spent an inordinate amount of time defending people for being purposefully helpless. Call it a different worldview or whatever; to you we should find it perfectly acceptable that people reject taking responsibility for themselves. At the Pulse nightclub we saw dozens of people die who didn't have to; they were faced with numerous opportunities to stand up for themselves and preserve their own lives, but instead they chose to cower and howl mindlessly into their cellphones and via text for someone, anyone, to come save them. You say this was not a choice of theirs; that no one could expect them to consider the possibility of preparing for a crisis like this. I call that an excuse. You say it's perfectly understandable for people to freeze in the face of such a situation. I say that while a moment's indecision might be understandable, there is no excuse under any circumstances for cowering in place just waiting to be murdered while a psychopath casually walks around, texting, making phone calls, and watching internet videos in the middle of killing people.

I keep talking about choice, and the choices people make in their lives every day. You say there are circumstances where a person being paralyzed in terror and fear isn't a choice and I say that if people had made proper choices in life they wouldn't have arrived at those circumstances where their psyches are so fragile that they shatter at the first sign of trouble.

 

Further elaboration on the subject from an instructor I have trained with and hold in high regard. It's about dealing with a world where terrorists are using trucks as weapons now, but it speaks directly to the mindset I'm speaking of.

http://defense-training.com/2017/pay-attention/

Pay Attention!
by John Farnam | 22 Aug 2017 | 2017 | 0 comments

22 Aug 17

Personal Protection!

These comments from a long-time friend, who does not share most of my political views, but still a good friend, counselor, and colleague. I do not require agreement with me on any particular subject to be a “condition of friendship!”

He makes good points, maybe some I overlooked:

“‘PAYING ATTENTION’ is at the base of all our personal security plans/procedures, and for good reason!

Whether the threat is a truck heading down La Rambla (one of the coolest places ever, but loaded with pickpockets) driven by a jihadist, with violent death of innocent pedestrians his only goal, or a drunk driver doing the identical thing (which probably happens more often), albeit with no intent to harm anyone in particular, or even someone behind the wheel who suffers a sudden ‘health disaster,’

It is PAYING ATTENTION that protects us!

All the more reason to not be talking on your cell phone, nor texting, whether your are a driver or pedestrian. There is simply too much going on around us all the time for us not to be constantly paying attention.

Walking/jogging down an isolated road? Not paying attention? Whether threats are represented by an oncoming car with a texting driver, or a rattlesnake on the shoulder, we simply must be alert to our surroundings.

I think the nature of, or reason for, a particular threat may be interesting from a political or historical standpoint, but that is all secondary. Personal awareness, and acknowledgment that there may be a significant threat to you personally,

1) At any time

2) In any place

3) In any form

4) From any direction

5) Under any circumstances

6) For any reason, or

7) For no reason at all

is what is most important, probably the only thing that really is important!

Need to make a call? Need to send or respond to a text? Back-up against a wall, keep your head up, and deal with it. I’m guessing that more pedestrians are killed via being run-down in crosswalks by distracted/clueless motorists than are ever killed by dedicated terrorists!

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea to be ‘fully equipped,’ and I realize that is your standard MO, but guns aside, how many people start their descent into ‘unhappy outcomes’ merely by not paying attention to their surroundings?

Even when you can’t be continually armed with concealed guns, is having a flashlight on your person ‘controversial?’

I’ll be attending a local ‘festival’ soon. Crowds of 20-30k is not unusual for this event. Unlike you, I’m not going to avoid it. I will be there, and armed with a concealed pistol, flashlight, and several blades.

Nearly as important, I’ll also have a hat and sunscreen!

Most importantly of all, I’ll have my head up and be constantly looking and listening:

Where is my exit and nearest escape route?

What in my immediate vicinity is ‘odd,’ ‘angry,’ or just ‘wrong?’

When lights suddenly go out, can I quickly make my way to safety?

Do I have cash, credit cards, cell phone, car keys, flashlight, sturdy shoes?

‘Being prepared’ involves more than just ‘going armed!’

WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION, no matter what we’re carrying, or not carrying.

It a bonus, in so many ways!”

Comment:

Thank you, my friend. You’re right!

/John

 

Those are two separate things:

1. The choice between being paralysed in terror OR not being paralysed in terror being.
2. The choice between making "proper choices in life so that they wouldn't have arrived at those circumstances" OR not making those proper choices.

I'm talking about number 1 and I'm asking you to say whether or not you think that EVERYONE not matter what psychological wiring has the choice of whether to freeze or not if they have had NO TRAINING.

 

"Religious exemption from having photo on gun license? Really?"

what you should be asking is why do you need a license at all for something that is a right, what's next you need a license to believe in a religion or for free speech?

every free American should have the right to own a gun and NOT need a license ... period

 

Even if they have murdered people in the past with a gun?

 

Note the word "free" in the message being responded to, indicating the member FreshAir is referring to someone who is not a convited criminal.