Russia Caucasus: Imam shot dead in Derbent, Dagestan

Russia Caucasus: Imam shot dead in Derbent, Dagestan

Here is my opinion on Islam, just so everyone can be clear: I think that Islam is not all that different from Judaism or Christianity, but some regions its practiced in along with the historical/cultural context make it a catalyst for violence. I don't think the Quran itself necessarily justifies terrorism, nor do I think that "real Muslims" necessarily support violent Jihad against non-Muslims. As you can see this man was an Imam so he has dedicated his life to the message of the Quran and the Prophet, so I am not going to be so arrogant as to say that he can't know the real definition of Islam while I do. What I do think is that the Quran, like a lot of religious texts, is vague and contradicts itself at times and that some people will use it to justify awful things and that is certainly one interpretation of it and a very dangerous one, but it is far from the only one. I hope that moderate Muslims will stand up for what they believe and not be scared to voice their views, but violent coercion is very scary which is why I believe it is important when dealing with this issue to educate oneself very well so as to actively advocate for these people and ensure they win the war against the radicals that wish to subvert their religion. I know as a moderate Christian if such people were a part of my religion I would stand up to them and would hope that the rest of the world would support me.

Anyway, thoughts on the topic? I know there has been some tension lately with the Muslims in Russia, particularly during Eid which occurred recently.

 

A large portion of imams are actually ignorant of what is in the Quran brlieve it or not, so that was a bad argument from authority. Also, the facts remain, to be a muslim is to be a terrorist. To be a muslim is to be a violent radical. It is nice that peaceful people want to call themselves muslims bt that is besides the point unless they do the work of their allah.

3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own
people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe
in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We,
too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their
finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His
forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than
all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to
believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to
consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me
[Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs
and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject
you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected
before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take
from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those
you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are
drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your
words..." (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives
impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of
God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He
punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:1

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your
friends." (Surah 5:51)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say
to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods
besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could
I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the
march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If
anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be
for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God
and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's
religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may
fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them."
(Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on
them: God will chastise them at your hands and
humble them. He will grant you victory over them..."
(Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the
mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures
were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute
out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance
and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all
religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims]
may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and
replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the
hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be
their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around
you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son;
who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I
am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied.
'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He
[God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say:
'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a
monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 8

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to
Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah
22:7

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal
desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for
these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of
Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in
order that you make money, if they wish to preserve
their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what
is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their
sins..." (Surah 47:1)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him
are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one
another." (Surah 48:29)

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but
good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They
shall recline on green cushions and fine
carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah
55:52-66-)

 

That doesn't prove that your interpretation is more correct, there are many places where the Quran contradicts itself, and chopping up verses and leaving parts out to get a specific reading definitely doesn't convince anyone that's the only way to read it. Furthermore, there is no evidence that one must be violent or radical, and as I've said, taking phrases incomplete and out of context is not a convincing argument in the least. You can keep trying to say that you know more than a religious scholar that has dedicated his life to the book but the way you argue it is not at all convincing.

Furthermore, many of the phrases you took incomplete or out of context have nothing to do in any way with the topic and I suspect you put them there in order to slander the religion. LOL.

 

You have people on every side who want peace.. and then you have the rejectionists on every side.

 

1. The Qur'an tells muslims to kill and go to war to fight for Islam:
Quran, chapters (Surahs) 9:5; 2:191; 2:193; 3:118; 4:75,76; 5:33,
8:12; 8:65; 9:73,123; 33:60-62.
2. Fight for Allah: "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive
them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is
severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred
Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then
slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers, (Quran
2:191).
3. Muslims are to battle for Allah: "Those who believe do battle for the
cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of
idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever
weak," (Quran 4:76).
4. Kill those against Islam: "The only reward of those who make war
upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land
will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and
feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.
Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter,"
(Quran 5:33).
5. Beheading: "When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with
you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the
hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of
them each finger.
13
That is because they opposed Allah and His
messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo!
Allah is severe in punishment," (Quran 8:12).
6. Allah urges war: "O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are
twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if
there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those
who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand,"
(Quran 8:65).
7. Slay non-muslims: "Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive),
and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they
repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their
way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful," (Quran 9:5).
8. Allah urges war: "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and
the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell,
and evil is the destination," (Quran 9:73).
9. Allah urges war: "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers
who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know
that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)," (Quran 9:123).
10. Allah urges killing: "...the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a
disease and the agitators in the city do not desist...
61
Cursed:
wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a
(horrible) murdering.
62
(Such has been) the course of Allah with
respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any
change in the course of Allah, (Quran 33:60-62).
11. Beheading: "Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then
it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then
making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the
war lay down its burdens..." (Quran 47:4).
12. Allah loves those who fight for him: "Truly Allah loves those who
fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented
structure," (Quran 61:4).

 

The quran is to be taken literally. Everything in the Quran is factual and really happened. Ask any Muslim here.

 

Muslims are as diverse as Christians concerning literalism.

But, rejectionists ALWAYS have their own half baked, special interpretations.

 

Have you ever even read the Quran? Not everything in it is recounting specific events you know. Plus I usually find myself in agreement with most Muslims on here, and the one's I've talked to at interfaith discussions.

 

????? Have you ever read the Koran?

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah...

2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

[2.244] And fight in the way of Allah,...

[2.246] ...May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust.

[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

[3.169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain;

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them,

Or any of the Hadiths?

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 26: Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

 

*GodTom Bosniaks are southern Slavs (or muslim Serbs) not Semites .

I think the problem goes beyond religions , people have killed others for following different football clubs or even more ridiculous reasons.

As i understand it religion like politics and nationality provide a safe harbour for human insecurities , they want to belong to a group and they need to feel safe inside it . Interaction with other groups holding different ideas puts group integrity (and thus emotional stability) into question specially because intelligence is always there kicking and questioning so the result is hostility , eliminate opposition to secure your protective mantle .
How books are interpreted , how political systems work out and what determines skin pigmentation are not reasons but excuses to start conflicts. It always boils down to us versus them , whatever makes us and whoever they are .
I agree with OP that Abrahamists are three sects of the same religion made by angry desert dudes , for historical reasons western sect evolved while eastern was left behind, now the west can laugh and mock with the east and what can the east do? kill all the infidels !
When the eastern sect was leading the western one did the exact same thing *crusades*

Of course the vast majority of people prefer to use their intelligence and common reason to see the lunacy hostility brings but they prefer to stay home instead of making bad news.

 

double post

 

Excellent post and thread

The big problem from me a Muslim and my point of view is this.

When someone like me a moderate Muslim speaks out and identifies major problems and who is responsible and illustrate for instance the Wahabi ideology and how it targets illiterates which I try to do every day.

The confusing thing is this.

The usual Jews and the Christians here spend all day condemning ME!!! the moderate Muslim. Instead of agreeing and seeing the truth they decide it's more fun to attack me or people like me. Most likely because the truth is not what they want to hear or not in their interests.

In the end as you see Muslims, the moderate ones just give up trying.

Very few Muslim stay here or enter into any debate here because of this problem.

 

right on cue

perfect example of what I am saying

The daily out of context random quotes!

Like me taking one sentence out of an article of the daily newspaper and posting it as a story and proof of something!

 

That doesn't prove that your interpretation is more correct, there are many places where the Quran contradicts itself, and chopping up verses and leaving parts out to get a specific reading definitely doesn't convince anyone that's the only way to read it. Furthermore, there is no evidence that one must be violent or radical, and as I've said, taking phrases incomplete and out of context is not a convincing argument in the least. You can keep trying to say that you know more than a religious scholar that has dedicated his life to the book but the way you argue it is not at all convincing.

Furthermore, many of the phrases you took incomplete or out of context have nothing to do in any way with the topic and I suspect you put them there in order to slander the religion. LOL.

Yes, I've read the Quran, I'm doing my fourth re-reading of it right now for an interfaith discussion group.

 

I already tried telling him and he ignored me. It really shows the depth of his ignorance and kind of keeps me from taking him seriously. I wonder what he thinks the definition of anti-semitism is. LOL.

I agree with you that religion can sometimes resemble politics in behavior and often times political movements will use religion to promote a political agenda which is never good because it makes it so that people who are members of the religion but don't agree with the political agenda will get marginalized. I'm not sure ultras killing each other over football is really the same thing or at least not in most places but I agree that in some places it takes on a political agenda and then it can get scary because those guys are the craziest of them all.

I just wish people could see the similarities instead of the differences for once.

Thanks for acknowledging my effort and you should keep fighting the good fight. At some point you have to realize that these people are just stubborn bigots who will not consider any evidence that goes against their beliefs and then you may want to put them on ignore, but there is nothing more tragic than the silence of the righteous so I'll stand with you because I know we can coexist and I don't want the bigots on either side to get the satisfaction of pushing religious conflict onto the general population and then yell "I told you so" until they're blue in the face.

 

I didnt interpret the Quran and instead merely quoted it. Evidently you read and interpreted the text and are now trying to argue that it doesnt mean what you interpreted it to mean.

 

Problem is that you don't know the very most basic definitions, so you don't understand what you are reading. It keeps hate alive..

 

Here this is another one, a supposed female Christian American that thinks giving the Taliban a Wahabi university in Afghanistan is a good thing!

http://www.politicalforum.com/lates...-build-major-islamic-complex-afghanistan.html

Amazing isn't it!

 

Lots of interesting developments in Afghanistan.. mining, power plants, oil concessions, a railroad, a couple of refineries. They will need an educated labor pool..

Since the Saudis have made a major move away from rote learning, this will be a REAL university, Abu..

 

Except our concerns are with the muslims who follow the literal interpretations, not those who follow half baked, special interpretations

 

Dixon.. you simply don't know basic definitions of words.

 

I know the definitions. Did you have a point, relevant to the topic of discussion? And I am not the topic of discussion. And yes it does keep the hate alive, thus this worldwide campaign of Islamic terrorism around the world.

 

I have most on ignore because reading the same trash day after day is too much to bear and thank you for highlighting the problem and your support

 

Dear God!!

 

No, your quotes took the phrases out of context and also chopped them up and you posted them in incomplete form because the part about "Allah loveth not transgressors" doesn't really fit in with your view of Islam. You can convince me of your side when you use complete quotes without pretending half the sentence doesn't exist and you can tell me what they mean in their correct context, which is also something you haven't done. I can take one line out of an essay and make it sound like the exact opposite of the point the writer was making, but its not a solid argument at all. Asserting that because someone disagrees on you about the message of the Quran that they are wrong or have not read it at all makes your argument even weaker, especially when its an incorrect assumption. If you are familiar with the scholarly pursuit of religious truth you'd know that people who study these things disagree all the time, which is why they come together and discuss them. There is no one right way to read the Quran, especially if you believe that it includes violent jihad against innocent people.