Nor has the UK ever had a position. Instead, to me it seems the UK keeps telling all of Europe, 27 member states, how to run itself. Having grown up under the authority of London should not make you imagine that everyone else is like that. You are like the kids born in Soviet labor camps who were eventually freed. Those kids from then on thought all people in uniform (like cops for example) are going to pull out a whip and make little canals on their backs and seeing a simple American cop on duty for example made them tremble in trauma and tears.
No they don't...votes and the political representation decided by those votes are what shapes the world. Once the votes are cast and a Government elected, "joe punter" has no real voice until the next election. Left to "joe punter" would banks and bankers be untouchable....would big businesses be evading tax..would we be allowing Israel to trash Palestine? I don't see that the Uncut crowds all over the world are achieving much.....and that is the voice of "joe punter" is it not? In the present all big companies all over the world are greedy and monopolistic and most television companies greedy and biased...and the difference is what regarding result, exactly? The rest of the world is like that, to a greater or lesser extent...can you think of any country, bar possibly Switzerland, which has anything approaching democracy and which doesn't ignore the voter between elections?
Can't disagree with your first paragraph.....the UK has a concept of its worth still based on the "glory" days of the Empire. It has nothing to do with the authority of London specifically......it has more to do with the fact that politicians all over the world are on a power trip on a gravy train they don't want to be chucked off...and that goes in spades for the politicians in the EU gradually trying to build themselves a lucrative fiefdom. Can you deny that? I read the papers, lots of history and factual books and the internet...I read how politicians (and big businesses) behave, and misbehave......how Governments abuse power either personally or via their intelligence agencies and/or military strength...how Governments legislate according to party policy and to maintain/increase their vote by listening to the minorities with the loudest voices and not for the country as a whole...how they use religion to oppress and fear of religion to control...in fact how they use fear of anything they can exaggerate/invent/to control.......how they, and oft-times their friends get rich at the expense of "joe punter"...and I read about the results of their actions. My opinion has been formed, not just by fifty years under a London government.......but also fifty years watching the growing political classes taking the world to hell in a handbasket. (I say fifty years, because it took me fifteen years in school before that forming my perceptions.) I have long been of the opinion that the one thing which should disqualify anyone from becoming a politician is their desire to become one.
Mainstream parliamentary politicians might just be doing that, but it seems to me that if any country can be said to be, it's Germany. I guess that's ok with you because Germany's politicians want European unification like you? So the UK is a Soviet labour camp? That's funny. You might consider the former Soviet dissident, Vladimir Bukovsky's, analysis of the growing powers of the EU and realise that many of us see growing Soviet style government from the EU itself. [video=youtube_share;1jVrbKdkByk]http://youtu.be/1jVrbKdkByk[/video] If Scots really want their freedom, they aren't going to get it whilst Scotland an EU member state, not when the EU has all policies under the qualified majority voting system, and their influence will be negligible if they disagree with the majority. It doesn't smell much like freedom to me. Of course if they only want freedom from the UK, that's fine, but they'll be further away from genuine freedom than they've been for hundreds of years.
That one made me spit coffee. What hallucinogen are you on? Further away from genuine freedom your arse. You don't have the first feckin idea what it's like being Scottish and it would fit you better to shut up and let people who are Scots living in Scotland talk about a topic only they have an accurate knowledge of. Sending your offspring up to deprive a Scot of university education doesn't qualify one as an authority any more than retiring up here and depriving a local of a small business.
Listen Nutsy, why don't you Google what happened to Ireland when it voted against an EU proposal. Then come back and tell us all how very civilised and ethical and focused on individualism the EU is. [/sarcasm]
No that was just a metaphor. Be more flexible with me tamora. What I meant is that common people in the UK have their personal thoughts somewhat intervened into by London and their tools are the Health & Safety, the BBC, the press which would even resort to hacking phones like the recent scandal etc. This form of control does go beyond the reasonable democratic line just a little bit but enough to be too much by today's norms. Because of the popularity of the English language there is only a one way flow of values between the island and the continent. This kind of sense of cultural self-sufficiency there has led the English into a cultural deficit. In other words the continent knows their more intimate thoughts more than they know the continent's and when this surfaces involuntarily during a more international issue, the English simply adopt the stubborn protectionist horns, hitting and distancing from all around alike, without sense of what the matter is all about and interpreting the other's knowledge of them as a kind of subtle attack on their integrity. The English today don't realize they are like a rock. So since London teaches the English to obey its exaggerated controlling paternalism over them, the already culturally isolated English obviously imagine that this is what all the world is like - that the world is a place where it's about everyone wanting to control, in the same way a child who was abused in his childhood thinks all the world is filthy and all people are evil, wanting to harm him and possibly becomes a murderer himself which to him is a form of natural defence that he involuntarily learnt from childhood. Most English have no frame of reference to compare London with. When hearing of others on the mainland it all still goes through the London filter first. Most English don't watch foreign European TV and I'm not talking about Euronews here. Now you understand what I mean? In mainland Europe there is such relaxation between Europeans, such trust, a kind of 'this European thing of ours'. A kind of (and this is only a metaphor tamora beware) giving one of them to hold a big knife and turning yor back on them and still feeling the certainty of the handle of that knife as if it was hold by your own hand. Mainlanders, when in each other's countries have a detached, laid back attitude towards one another. In France, Belgium, Germany I felt like at home. In England I felt like a spy having my cover blown every time I spoke - not among people of my age but more with those older ones including those in administrative positions. Though there were some critical level youngsters too... Still strange is that overall I could have a more relaxed, friendly conversation / drink with a bunch of guys from Hong Kong than from England. These guys certainly speak more Globalism than the English and they don't seem to be upset by the globalization. But tamora I already have a question pending a reply from you don't I? I'd appreciate you quoting the thing from earlier in my EU threads, like we said.
Ireland tends to be oblivious and unaware of its situation. Its debt is one that can not be paid the old-fashioned way in less than 150 years, even in the most optimistic future economic scenario. But people even in the following 10 years will want to continue to have their standards of living at least at the same level as now, they wouldn't want to tighten their belts any further and that means continuing to borrow faster than you can pay back really... that's the case with Ireland's productivity and resources unfortunately. Also, Ireland's economic skill is to a great extent the cause of all this debt. You will say it's because of the Euro currency they use but then I ask you how come all these smaller countries who use the Euro like Austria, the Netherlands, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Estonia, Finland had no trouble keeping their debts under control? A Federal Europe would mean all debts, at least those to the ECB are erased!!! More than that, everyone else in the Union would pay Ireland's debt almost like overnight, and it would be Germany's and France's duty to maintain the same incomes and standards of living everywhere as in Germany and France, otherwise all would migrate to France and Germany - this would mean the French and the Germans stealing their own wallet. So it is in their best interest to make, ONLY economically and social servicelly speaking, 'a Germany' out of all Europe. When Germany becomes one state with all others in Europe, it can not harm and control the others more than they control Germany. Germany becomes just a region.
Heck, Viv! You sound like my sister who once fell out with me because I sponsored a dog through the Dog's Trust...and it wasn't shock, horror a "Scottish" Dog..as in it was in a dog's home in England. Took a few weeks for us to get over that one. I tend to agree with tamora re the EU, their control over every darn thing they can control now and their attempts to add to that control. I don't have overmuch of a problem staying in the EU after the vote on Independence, if that is how it works, given we will still be technically part of the UK until negotiations all over the place are concluded...but I do expect that there will be a referendum on joining/continuing in the EU offered by at least one party in their 2016 election manifesto...could well be a vote winner for them. Nobody in Scotland or the UK (or the EU, in fact) is an authority on Independence in our circumstances...not me, you, alexa, iolo, tamora, highlander, leffe, Vlad Ivx, Cameron, Clegg, Salmond, Milliband, Moore, Labour, Tory, Lib Dem, SNP, Barrosso etc.....we are stepping into the unknown with nothing but International Law and/or precedent to guide us....and there is very little, if any, precedent. Way I look at it is....if we stay in the EU, we won't be able to afford free university education to Scottish kids, because we'd have to do it for the kids of another 27 countries as well. If we stay in the EU....we are obliged to allow all EU citizens who turn up the same benefits as we give our own citizens and that will most definitely mean, in the short/possibly medium term that we simply won't be able to afford it....unless we cut all benefits. That is why I think that we are much better out of the EU until we see what our circumstances are and we won't know that for a fair while after 2016....and if it seems a good idea then, then we vote for it...or not. If you, as an individual, had no idea what your spare income would be after paying your essential outgoings and allowing a bit for emergencies......would you be taking on a full Sky package and a mobile phone contract which cost £x a month and had an additional payment for internet access because you didn't want your kid to think that money didn't expand to meet needs in case it made him face realiity? That is pretty much where we are regarding EU membership after Independence......imo. See me..I think we will be better than fine in the medium to long term....but few others think past tomorrow and what the immediate effects on them will be.....and I think that membership of the EU immediately will give us problems our politicians hadn't anticipated, so I hope we have to reapply.
Your response had me feeling sorry for you, but for the sake of the argument smart arse, suppose you tell me how you think Scotland can be 'independent' and at the same time be an EU member state? The EU has a huge body of law (and it IS a huge body) which all new entrants are required to sign up to. Law made by the EU is superior to national law evey time; that principal has long been established. Member states cannot pick and choose which policies and directives and regulations they obey unless they have opt outs from aspects of relevant treaties. Perhaps you imagine you will inherit the opt-out from the euro negotiated by a previous UK government, which was in itself under pressure from James Goldsmith's party? It is deeply ironic that you want the opt outs negotiated by the Tories you hate so much. I wouldn't dream of sending my offspring anywhere. She is perfectly capable of making her own decisions and paying her own tuition fees. Indicidentally, one of her friends was born in Argentina and spent most of his life there, but took Portuguese citizenship to qualify for free tuition fees. How do you feel about that? Is he depriving a Scot of a university education? If not why not, when according to you my fee paying daughter is?
The EU isn't flexible, but you want flexibility from me? And thanks for bringing up the shortcomings of the British establishment. Is it any wonder I support UKIP? The fact that this establishment supports the EU is just one more reason to oppose the political parties that are part of it. I've always understood what you mean; your theme is a familiar one from europhiles. Nevertheless, I don't want to be in the EU. And I watch TV from all over the world not just Europe, and most of those of us who are interested in politics are keen users of all kinds of sources via the internet, because we know we know the mainstream media here tells us only what it thinks we need to know and only a biased version at that. Could you remind me in which thread and in which post this question appears or any other question I have missed, or simply repeat them, please? Thanks.
Scotland is already obliged to fund the uni fees of other European students. That does not apply to English students because the EU sees the situation between Scotland and England as a domestic matter and it will not interfere, but that will of course change should Scotland separate from the UK. As far as benefits go, the same applies. We are all citizens of the EU and must all be treated in the same way and that applies to benefits too.
What is for sure is that the current form of the EU is not desirable by anyone. There is this struggle for more flexibility but some member states don't allow for it. Member states are still the master decision-makers. Forget the small regulations and policies that's something else. Obviously I wasn't talking about you. Had I thought that of you I would have stopped responding ages ago. This thread, post #82, page 9.
If you really want an answer, please repeat your question on one of your EU threads as I suggested, where I'll also answer those rather offensive comments about "the English" if you like. This thread is about Scotland. Let's keep it that way.
I have never been offensive towards the English or any other nation. I do like the English. I think I did express it clear enough that it is not their fault nor their will that they have been made to lose contact with others. So now you twist this to make it look like I keep asking indecent questions and violate forum guidelines? There's nothing indecent in post #82 of page 9. Anyone can see that. I don't understand why you delay answering it. And isn't it a bit weird to ask me to post my own question a second time...if you really wanted to answer it you'd just quote me... (post #82, page 9).The forum guidelines even say you are to avoid duplicate posts. I know it’sabout Scotland. Maybe you missed how many times I used the word Scotland and Scottish in that question? It was a perfectly ok comparison between the cultural diversity of the UK and that of the EU, outside as well as within the EU context, something that preocupates the Scottish and the whole independence idea very much. I don't quite see the point you want to make.
Aye right enough ...... the un elected chairman regurgitating Cameron's words! But good on both ... the bloody fools! So if Scotland has to apply to join the EC, this is what Salmon and him ministers should do after the referendum! BUT ....... Salmon should inform them that the option will also be put forward to the Scottish nation to vote upon another referendum to see if they want to join such a body! Ooooh ..... and until such a time the referendum being held and counted , all EC members living in Scotland not belonging to these isles should be required to leave until the vote is counted and membership given to in requested to the Scottish nation. This will mean in Inverness alone, eight thousand jobs being created for local Scottish English Welsh and Irish nationals. Cameron through Barrasso has cooked his goose and its not even Christmas. Roll on 2014! Regards and I notice you've not mentioned that foreigners sitting in palaces sucking the life's blood of your English nation! So what about the Cestui Que Trust? Aye..... well its only 5%. Like sheep to the slaughter you should know better, your nation deserves better! Oooh ..... and what about the money that goes to the EC ...... more than £3.000.000.00 a day ........ most people can and find this out ........ but we get a return from the EC ....... but where does this money, over a million pounds a day go too?? I'll give you a hint ....... bugger lugs! Not you, the hint! I wouldn't want to get you too duchy......., like growing corn on a wall! And by the way ...... its tax payers money .... which should go back to the tax payer...... and doesn't! Regards Highlander
More flexibility means more sovereignty given up to EU institutions. Member states ministers are only the master decision-makers within the EU using majority voting in huge swathes of policy areas. National parliaments cannot overturn EU decisions though in the UK they like to talk about it. It means our vote has no effect on policies. Now that might be acceptable to you, but such a shabby form of democracy is not acceptable to me. The people affected by the 'small' regulations can't forget them and there are no small policies. Thank you, I think. If you like the English, please respect us enough to research the position properly before you lecture us on whether the EU is acting in our interests, as it's very hard to 'like' someone in return otherwise, and we havent been made to lose contact with anyone. That's a ridiculous idea! In no way did I intend to imply you were indecent, or that you had broken any guidelines. I just dont want to turn this thread into yet another one that ends up debating the merits or otherwise of the EU. Minor variations on these points get done ad nauseum as it is. If theyre on the same thread, theres at least a chance we wont bore each other and everyone else rigid by repeating the same things over and over, and you already have enough threads dealing with the EU. So, I had no wish to answer you on this. I thought that was clear. I was trying to avoid making a point! You directed me to this post (page 9, #82): ** Underpinned only by its political fracture that impacts the social. For example all of a sudden I want to visit Stockholm and improve my Swedish so that I can understand them better when they talk. There's a thousand things standing in my way apart from the former borders and the former documents I needed to carry. The most plausible answer from this current form of Europe is that I will never see Stockholm. A barrier can't ever be cultural but one that prevents the intercultural. An image opposed to this one is of you Englishmen and your flexibility and practicality, DYNAMISM of movement between for example you and Scotland. You are such different cultures yet you have had no problem co-existing culturally and would never have. Political is what the problem between you now is. ** in which you were concerned about not being able to go to Sweden and mentioned Scotland only once. Maybe you meant another post? In answer to your point about not being able to visit Sweden (and this applies to other EU member states) Id say be patient. The bar on Romanians and freedom of movement only lasts for 7 years after your accession to the EU. This means you will be able to travel freely in a year whatever Sweden wants. OK? The majority of Romanians are fine upstanding people; I have worked with several of them, but some Romanians have got Romanians a bad reputation here and we have enough criminals now and we are very densely populated, with public and social services under enough strain already.
Of course Hugh Jarse, straight after you tell me how you think Scotland can be independent and at the same time be a UK member state. You keep missing the point, which is rather Scotland be independent within the EU than the UK. In the real world (where the rest of us live) it is not possible to isolate from other countries. Trade and alliance with other countries is required. Being dragged into every passing international incident, isn't. Nor is being swamped under the cumbersome, over-populated mess that is England at the moment. Nor is being subjected to the unethical political strategies and intimidation we can expect England to deploy when we are no longer allied. EU may help a little with that nonsense. Perhaps talk down to someone who hasn't been living in an EU country under EU direction and who hasn't seen and lived how it works. Honest to God, it's offensive. There is no difference, although I believe the Argentinian accent is delicious. That is a bit ruff, but you're not listening either. I'm fed up telling Tedious Tam I like English people. I just don't want them running my country. Still I expect she's had enough of Scottish people running her country, as they have for decades.
So it seems Wee Eck's "advice" he said he got on the EU was only in his imagination. What a parcel o' rogues indeed!
Whot,do you mean those reprobate's in your aristocracy? Rogues, thieves, reprobate's and liars, right enough! Highlander
Oh no, Viv, I didnt ever say Scotland could be independent and at the same time be part of the UK. Nor have I said Scotland should be, or that it should not secede from the UK, so over to you How can Scotland be independent and still be a member of the EU? You can explain, or Ill just laugh whenever you use this line. The EU has a huge body of law which applies to all member states, complete with a court that sees its duty as upholding the treaties (which all member states sign giving the EU the right to be over controlling as you put it). Maybe Salmond has discovered something no other member state has. I know youve talked about picking and choosing which EU legislation you comply with, but really that can only work for the small stuff as Vlad put it, and it does not fit with any definition of 'independence' as I understand it. No, you keep missing the point Scotland cannot be independent within the EU. Even the SNP no longer use the fatuous independence within the EU slogan any more, nor does it choose to compare an independent Scotland with non-EU Norway any more. If however Scotland just wants to independent of the UK, all it has to do is vote for it. Job done. The SNP has not made that distinction however. Maybe that's what they mean, but they really are selling a dishonest message if so because the same policies will apply with or without secession; only the interpretation of them will differ. Youre deluding yourself if you think you live in the real world and youve been listening to too much europhile propaganda. No eurosceptic is suggesting that we isolate ourselves, rather the opposite. We dont want to be stuck behind a protectionist customs tariff. The worlds only major country which is isolationist is N Korea. Im sure you dont really think wed be like N Korea if we left. Wed be no more isolated than any other independent country. Arent you forgetting that most powers have been devolved to the Scottish parliament, and whats left is yours to take whenever you vote to secede, so English people are not running your country? And what unethical political strategies and intimidation are the English deploying? Not really a counter argument, is it, Vapid Viv? Im not talking down to you, and as tedious as you might find me, my facts are right. If youre offended by someone who points out that your independence position is fantasy, thats not my problem. Quite clearly you havent a clue how the EU works. So you'd have an Argentine student who conveniently took out EU citizenship to claim a free Scottish uni education, educated at a Scottish uni on the same basis as English students. OK, fine but that kind of 'like' we can live without! Scotland cannot refuse English students free university tuition fees unless it refuses ALL students tuition fees, including Scottish students, if you leave the UK. That over controlling EU again. If you dont like Westminster running your country, don't complain tediously, petition the Scottish parliament to hold the referendum. Most English people really dont care either way, or are in favour of the break up. You dont need help to extract yourselves, you just need to (*)(*)(*)(*) well vote for it and as soon as the Scottish parliament likes.
Confused havering as always. Scotland being independent as a country is nothing to do with the EU. Membership of it is a completely separate issue, which the country can take up or not depending on public opinion. Once in the EU, we'll be subjected to the same constraints as any other member excepting the bully boys (England will still be one of those, no doubt) who will invariably weight the tables in their own favour. What on earth are you wittering about now? Independence from the UK and EU membership are two different issues. Whatever any of that means, it is unrelated to the point I had to make purely in response to you. I prefer Vivacious. Quite clearly you are confused and emitting few facts amid much hot air. Oh what are you bleating about: I don't need direction from you.
Real Scots appreciate there is an huge amount to be done and communication issues arise. Not to say I'm not watching that space for competence and control just the same...
I prefer, Scots will vote for independence. Whatever risks, it is the only vote. To vote against equates to treason, in the view of some.
