Should the US Supreme Court end race-based affirmative action in university admissions?

Hard to say. but he never would have been admitted to Columbia or Harvard Law without it and I doubt the press would've fawned over a white guy like they did him

 

Obama did have remarkable public speaking skills. He was an orator much better than the other politicians running at the time. Policy aside, he definitely talked to talk better than the rest. So I think had he been white she still would have gotten a lot of support. Enough to take the presidency? Not sure. But still a lot.

 

He wouldn't have won his senate race if a corrupt judge had not improperly released a sealed domestic court record about an opponent

 

People seem to be under the delusion that students get into college through merit.
George W. Bush received C averages throughout high school and had low SAT scores, but that didn’t stop him from getting into Yale, that is because daddy and gramps went there. He went on to continue to be a low C student and partier. He was a legacy admission. Do Asians complain about those admissions over more qualified Asian students? Why the silence? Legacy admissions, which continue today, began as a way to keep Jewish and immigrant admissions low and white rich elites admissions high at Ivy league schools. Blacks were hardly considered.

Daddy not an alumni but you want to get into a prestige school? If you’re rich make a large (tax deductible) donation and they will find a place for your daughter.

Here are some other things that influence college admissions:

Courses taken.

• 
  Grades received.
  
  Class rank.
  
  Standardized test scores.
  
  Personal statements and essays.
  
  Recommendations.
  
  Extracurricular activities.
  
  Interviews.
  

If you have the money many of those things can be gamed. There are SAT prep companies and boot camps. You can also take the SAT as often as you want and keep the best score. Trump allegedly had someone take the test for him. There are companies that help you with your “personal essay”. Recommendations may be about who your daddy knows. The value of your extracurricular activities may be dependent on their availability at your living standards. A rich kid can spend a month in Ghana feeding the poor. A poor kid has limited choices and maybe volunteer at the Boy’s and Girl’s Club.

Speaking of Yale, Clarence Thomas, who is against affirmative action, couldn’t have gotten into Yale without it. He wouldn’t be where he is today but he regrets it, because he was made to feel bad by racists after graduation and was let known he didn’t deserve his degree by potential employers. That’s a poor reason to be against affirmative action.

Times have changed and business is looking for qualified POC. The argument for affirmative action is the long history of institutional racism, the continued favoring of the white elite in college admission especially in the most prestigious schools.

 

You apparently are quite ignorant about Yale in the era that Bush applied. Since I hold a degree from that school and since my brother was an admissions officer, I will educate you on your erroneous beliefs. In the 60s, Yale used to take the vast majority of its students from what were called feeder prep schools. Phillips Andover academy was one of the more prominent one-tons of boys from schools such as Hotchkiss, Andover, Exeter, St Pauls, Groton, Deerfield Academy, the Kent School (my brother's hs) etc were accepted at Yale. Bush was not out of the ordinary and his above 1200 SAT scores were hardly poor.

 

Who's ignorant?
"For the Ivy League, competitive scores range between 1500-1550. For other highly competitive schools, it's above 1400. 1300 and above will make you a competitive applicant for most other public universities and private universities." https://www.crimsoneducation.org/us/blog/test-prep/good-SAT-score/#:~:text=It depends.,public universities and private universities.

 

wow, I guess you were unable to understand I was talking about the SIXTIES. this was well before the SAT scores were jacked up 100 points. When attended Yale the average score was 1360. You need to learn how to read what people write. 1200 was a good score when Bush applied.

 

to reiterate: Ivy league admissions have changed a lot in the last 70 years. My father's prep school class-which included Robert Bork, saw almost every student gain admission into Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Dartmouth Amherst Williams or Columbia. A few went to U of Chicago or Stanford. Half of Bush's class at Andover went to the big three (Yale, Harvard Princeton) IIRC

 

Just to note

4 largest cities in America will be led by Black mayors

When Rep. Karen Bass is sworn in as Los Angeles mayor next month, Black people will be leading the four largest cities in America.

“As Black mayors continue to win elections this cycle, we are excited that, for the first time, the four largest cities – New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago & Houston – are each led by an African American mayor,” the African American Mayors Association said on Thursday....
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/17/us/black-mayors-large-cities-karen-bass-reaj/index.html

Time for all people to stand on their own individual merits.

 

Thank you for your dismissive and condescending reply but SAT scores have remained relatively stable throughout its history.
https://www.erikthered.com/tutor/historical-average-SAT-scores.pdf
The point is and was W was a legacy admission and legacy admissions continue. 14% of Yale's student body are legacy admissions. Spots taken from more qualified (Asian) students. People get angry if a less qualified African American gets a spot over a "more qualified" applicant but not if it is a rich white kid who gets a spot over a "more qualified" applicant? Does that sound racist to you?
My point is, "more qualified" is a subjective evaluation. Admissions are not totally based on merit, as I demonstrated earlier. If a culture is under represented because of past exclusion there is no reason not to put that in the formula for admission, but racists, like Thomas found out, think that is the only criteria for admission.

 

Yes. That experiment didn't do much good. Even blacks don't like it because they know people wonder if they got in just because they are black.

 

I was a legacy. I also was accepted into Amherst where I had ZERO family ties and which was harder to get into than Yale. I missed Phi Beta Kappa by one A-I had enough but I was untimely in converting a pass fail class to a Grade. (I earned an A in it ultimately) and I was the ranking student in my major. The #1 in my class was seventh generation Yale. Legacy students at Yale graduated with higher GPAs than others. You seem to think that Private Schools such as Yale were completely merit based. They were not. A private school can accept a student for a good reason, a bad reason or for no reason at all as long as it's not an illegal reason. Racial discrimination is illegal in most areas and should be so in school admissions. BTW one of Yale's most famous (when I was there) professors-the late great Robert Dahl-a socialist-said legacies are why he could afford to teach at Yale rather than work at the Rand Corporation. Legacy admissions are why schools like Yale have huge endowments and why one of my good friends-from a large Irish-Catholic family headed by a disabled NYC firefighter, could attend Yale without being saddled with tons of debt.

 

I think I may have posted this before but my senior year, a bunch of us who had been nominated for Marshall and Rhodes Scholarships were directed to attend a meeting that featured a few grad students who had been Rhodes Scholars. three of them were white guys, the fourth was a black medical student I had never met. One of my friends noted "we know how he got the Rhodes" and I was inclined to agree. However, as I left the meeting, I was near that med student. My dorm was near the gym and he was walking to it and we started talking. Turns out the guy was a former all-American in Track and Phi Beta Kappa at Princeton. HE also worked at a local hospital while in College and did a bunch of other stuff. He was the most qualified guy in that room of students. So I asked him about affirmative action. He noted that he knew people thought he got into Princeton due to his race (in reality, he was a top athletic recruit and have board scores higher than 75% or so of the other students). So he noted, he busted his ass at Princeton and graduated summa cum laude. He noted that he will always have to deal with the fact that some will credit his medical degree to AA.

 

Affirmative action based on race or the size of a State needs to end, it's had it's time, but I do not think it should be used for college admissions or elections

this would go for all affirmative action, that said, if one meets the qualifications, race should not be a deciding factor against admission either


not telling those that won't qualify based on race or gender to not apply, as it's a waste of their time to apply is a problem for sure, if race or gender is a qualifier, then list it as a qualifier, so people do not waste their time applying for something they can't qualify for because of their race or gender

but we all know, rich schools are about $$$ and who you know... that is the reality of it, list that as a qualifier too if it is

 

Thank you for a more civil response, although it sounded like you did not read what I wrote. I clearly stated “admissions are not totally based on merit”, that is the point, but you go off rationalizing the practice of legacy admissions with a brief bio and statements like “legacy students at Yale graduated with higher GPAs than others” which means nothing. Some graduated with lower GPAs than others. The other rationale you give is that they are rich.

You also state a private school can admit a student for any reason they like…….unless it is race based? Were you made to feel you didn’t deserve your diploma because you were a legacy? What kind of person would do that? A bigot? African Americans were subjected to discrimination, institutional racism, segragation, prevented from holding power and made to feel like second class citizens for a century after emancipation. They have 1/10 the wealth of whites and twice the poverty rate. You don’t think adding race as one factor out of many for admission to help a race catch up is warranted, but adding my daddy went to school here is a legitimate factor.

 

I Saw black kids from wealthy backgrounds who screwed around, cut classes and then got into top law or medical schools ahead of poorer white kids with much better averages. Affirmative action benefited wealthy lazy black kids. I also saw Jewish kids whose grandparents were lucky to escape with nothing more than their lives from Eastern Europe who made top grades. Those kids backgrounds had far more recent trauma than most of the blacks.

 

Yes sir, them negros are lazy, irresponsible and always trying to game the system. They don't need be in Ivy league schools with the rich white legacy students who were chosen over more qualified applicants.

 

what a blatantly dishonest and mendacious misinterpretation of what I said. You seem incapable of comprehending that affirmative action has resulted in wealthy underachieving blacks getting seats that middle class white and Asian students with far higher scores should have received

 

justice is blind, race\gender should not matter, do you think it should?

 

I think it would be impossible to rule on a case of almost any civil rights law without knowing the difference between men and women. How would you rule on a Title 9 case if you don't acknowledge that women, as a separate sex, exist? It seems you would have to throw out all civil rights laws that protect women's rights (a term that must not exist for you) since "woman" is apparently a social construct and without basis in science, correct?

 

You seem incapable of comprehending that legacy admissions have resulted in wealthy underachieving whites getting seats that middle class white and Asian students with far higher scores should have received

 

not nearly as much as unqualified black students. and legacy admissions neither violate laws against racial discrimination nor cost the school's welfare since those students that get preferential treatment, have resulted in poorer students being able to attend the place. Black students at elite schools-especially law schools, dominate the bottom quarter academically. Not so with legacy admissions at elite colleges

 

if you're discriminating based on race or gender, it doesn't matter the race or gender, it's still discrimination

 

How would a mere judge, without a biology degree, determine which gender is which?

 

does it matter their gender, if they are discriminated against based on their gender, that is all that matters

regardless if the discriminator was correct on the gender or not

a defense of, I am sorry, I discriminated because I thought he was a she, doesn't fly